ADV, AFH, CMC, ETC

Given that every definition of 'gremlin' involves mischief, usually involving difficulties with mechanical devices, I really think we can do better than 'small demon with axe'.  How about: Dizzy target device effect.  There, that's not too overpowered, is it?  Heck, you could probably stat-boost it, too.

As for Skyrian, I think is plenty high enough a cost for its portable Gauntlet effect.  For 3 I think you could get away with a reusable Armbreaker, given that it's mounted on a defenseless 12/12 monster.

And yes, Kelar Citizen is useless, flavorless, and oddly convoluted.  Why?  It's a Citizen.  It's supposed to be productive and relatively useless in combat.  I still think mana generation of some sort is the best way to go, or the 'upgradeable' idea that someone else had.  It could just be as simple as "2 Loses this ability and gains +20/+20, soldier type".

' Protected from next damage' is pretty much the equivalent of a dizzier for defensive purposes. I mean yeah, there are some pros, some cons, but it boils down to to prevent a damage, on a monster that only costs . It'd be easy to make a stall that couldn't be broken without ability/spell use using just Citizens and generators (play more citizens when old ones die from occasional spell etc). In that time you accumulate splash mana to do other random stall type things.

Gremlin: Compares well to Boomboxen actually. Here are all the Effect devices (listed by speed; no speed are not listed):
EDIT: because masa has to be Mr. Point-Out-the-Flaw-in-the-Reasoning-and-make-me-work-harder:
So C speed for Gremlin's ability maybe?
The biggest objection I see to this ability involves Graviton Sword and Decelerator: effects can be reduced to E speed and made Gremlin counterable.

Skyrian: At least 2, unless you have sniping this can become an ultimate defender if not killed immediately (think Tsuitachi Ninja). At least with 2 cost you can't maintain 5 Skyrian's resisting attacks (would like to keep it at 3 cost due to usefulness with a Sudden Energy).
In support for a lower cost though, this is the perfect anti-rush card the way it is. Cheap and with undizziers unstopable by brute force alone (which can also be made the case for uping the cost >_>).

Kelar Citizen: It is VERY difficult to balance generating. 1 for Kel'sor being out is too insignificant while 2 is too good (with multiple Citizens out anyway). Web didn't like the "change to soldier" idea and I'd have to agree on the same grounds as not making Lifetimer unique + ability for spell immunity: overly complex and too far from original concept.
Both Citizen's current ability and the other one web proposed of "into play, random effect put to top of your deck" indicate an effect-based orientation; so ideas should be along those lines (if not for the difficulty of balancing it, the generate when Kel'Sor is out idea would of been perfect).

Gildward Wrote:Side though important notes:
1. Do we still want to debate the new abilities or accept them (at least for now, there ARE other cards that need balancing)?

Glad you brought this up: I'd say so. I'd really like to just get the 1-costers done before moving on.

Gildward Wrote:2. Do we still want to change the sac and stats or shall we wait along with note 1. and play with the new abilities a bit before decided on those 2 points (or even just accept the current stats/sac as they are)?

Wait, but I'd only say like a week or so. These arn't really technical abilities, so there's no reason to draw this out.

azulknight Wrote:I still want to debate Kelar Citizen. I think it's still useless.

POW has been sitting behind me as I browse the fourms yelling that exact same thing. I tend to agree, it's kinda crap.

Tamdrik Wrote:And yes, Kelar Citizen is useless, flavorless, and oddly convoluted. Why? It's a Citizen. It's supposed to be productive and relatively useless in combat.

Exactly.

Tamdrik Wrote:I still think mana generation of some sort is the best way to go, or the 'upgradeable' idea that someone else had. It could just be as simple as "2 Loses this ability and gains +20/+20, soldier type".

Erm, not exactly. It's a racial card, it should have racial abilities. When I don't have people over, I'll post a suggestion or two.

Actually, even the Device effects without a speed would be affected - dizzying them before they get hit with It's Alive!, dizzying them for Deadwoods damage, or to counter Coffee Shops. Modifiers wouldn't be affected by the wording of Tamdrik's suggestion, and they couldn't be affected even if he wanted them to be.

See Category:Device on the CMC Wiki for a list of all devices.

Gremlin: Demon synergy, even if insignificant, works for me. I mean, being a spawnable monster I wouldn't want it to be as powerful as some of the others anyway (it was already used through pit).
Skyrian Soldier: Seems somewhat abuseable, yes. Protection would work better than Lifebar imo.
Kelar Citizen: Make it Draw phase/End turn, so it works on defence, and I'd be happy with it.
Skeleton: The Magic Skull gives card advantage bonuses when considering cards that involve discarding, graveyard or hand size, as well as being some nice sac mana hat works even when killed in combat. Oh, and nice Norlaan synergy there too. I'd knock his sac back to zero or 1, considering the skull gain.
The Rest: Probably fine, ability-wise.

And I've always been pro-new synergies. Skeleton, Demon and Soldier synergies please me muchly.

EDIT: Thought web's post was in reference only to the 1/2 mana generating Kelar Citizen idea.

Edit: Well, that's okay then.

To those who think that Skyrian's 'portable gauntlet' is exactly the same as a dizzier, note that:
1) If he hasn't activated his ability yet, the attackers just attack directly (or attack other monsters) and ignore him, unless he's dizzy, in which case they slaughter him, of course, just like the dizzier.
2) If he has activated his ability, the attackers designate an expendable flanker at him instead of the beefiest attacker.  Generally, that's all a dizzier will dizzy anyway, but they at least have the option to dizzy the beefy attacker if they are willing to sacrifice themselves in the process.
3) Most dizziers can counter at least some subset of activated abilities-- all of them can at least counter E-speed abilities on their own turn.

Combine that with vulnerability to basically any sniper and Foombolt, and I don't think is too inexpensive.  After all, Sparks' stats aren't tremendously underpowered for her cost (maybe ~85%), with a similar (probably better) ability, and 12/12 is probably comparable for 1.

As for citizen, well, we could give it some other support role befitting its noncombatant resident of Kel'Sor status, like " Undizzy target dark elf", except that would break when combined with Faritin and a Manamancer.  How about a Slime Leader-ish ability, like " Target Dark Elf gains 10 life until end of turn"?

For Gremlin, frankly, A-speed dizzying of devices seems fine to me.  He still only affects a tiny percentage of cards in the universe, given that many of them aren't affected by dizzying at all, several are useless, and two are donations.

Tamdrik Wrote:How about a Slime Leader-ish ability, like " Target Dark Elf gains 10 life until end of turn"?

Hmm, I kinda like that. How about whatever it's stats are instead? As it is now, say... "star: Target Dark Elf gains +12/+12 until end of turn?"

Gremlin: Destroy: If not a token, opponent takes X damage (someone come up with a number, I'm tired right now).
Actually gives a reason to use the card instead of Gremlin Pit.

Gildward Wrote:Gremlin: Destroy: If not a token, opponent takes X damage (someone come up with a number, I'm tired right now).
Actually gives a reason to use the card instead of Gremlin Pit.

You don't need the "If not a token" bit, since into play and on destroy abilities don't trigger for tokens (AFAIK).  But since the "Dizzy target device effect" ability is roughly on par with Boomboxen's ability, utility-wise, I'd be okay with an additional into-play or leaves-play ability that only works for the non-token version.  On destroy (or into play): all opponent's monsters lose 2 attack?  Or if you want to ditch the device ability (for aesthetic or space reasons), it could be 3 attack.  At least that could be interpreted as issues with their weaponry or something.  I would just like to preserve some sense of Gremlin flavor beyond "small beatstick".

Danny Ketch Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:How about a Slime Leader-ish ability, like " Target Dark Elf gains 10 life until end of turn"?

Hmm, I kinda like that. How about whatever it's stats are instead? As it is now, say... "star: Target Dark Elf gains +12/+12 until end of turn?"

Doesn't that kind of make Slime Leader look pale by comparison?  I'm okay with half its stats, but +12/+12 seems a little much.

Tamdrik Wrote:Doesn't that kind of make Slime Leader look pale by comparison? I'm okay with half its stats, but +12/+12 seems a little much.

I would probably agree except that it's still harder to kill Slime Leader, meaning you will on average get more uses out of its ability.

If you've got two of those Kelar Citizens out, then combined they're a 24/24 that doesn't care about the first 12 damage, putting them well above the curve for a 2 mana monster. Also, if it suicides, one survives.

With one of these, a Kelar Warrior could easily kill two Stone Golems. With two of these, a Kelar Warrior could kill easily two Winged Golems. Way too powerful if you ask me.

I'll reiterate that I think End turn for the current bonus would be fine, so you can use it on defence. Draw phase/End turn if you still think it'd be massively underpowered.

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Seeing as webrunner semignored some of the balances in this thread, I think that the abilities he's gone for are what he wants the monsters to have for flavour purposes. As in, he wants Gremlin to be more a small Demon than a device wrecker, no?

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For Skyrian Soldier, would still be too powerful for protection. Yes, it means nothing if the opponent attacks directly. For the first turn. After the one turn setup, you can block and then give yourself protection in the Attack Resolution. And that first turn setup doesn't mean much seeing as they only cost 1 mana, so you can almost certainly get them out faster than the opponent can get their larger monsters.

2 could probably work, or perhaps simply 3.

Dorii Wrote:I'll reiterate that I think End turn for the current bonus would be fine, so you can use it on defence. Draw phase/End turn if you still think it'd be massively underpowered.

While I agree that if you want to keep the one-mana creatures useless and unplayed, with abilities that don't really have any basis in flavor for the card, this would be a good solution, I unfortunately do not subscribe to the same balance philosophy, and neither do at least a couple of others.  By the time there are enough effects in play for this ability to matter, there is no way you're better off using this than something larger.

Dorii Wrote:Seeing as webrunner semignored some of the balances in this thread, I think that the abilities he's gone for are what he wants the monsters to have for flavour purposes. As in, he wants Gremlin to be more a small Demon than a device wrecker, no?

This is like having a monster called "Long Range Artillery" that is a 5/75 abilityless wall.  Its name screams a certain type of ability, but you're content with "but webrunner likes it this way".

Dorii Wrote:For Skyrian Soldier, would still be too powerful for protection. Yes, it means nothing if the opponent attacks directly. For the first turn. After the one turn setup, you can block and then give yourself protection in the Attack Resolution. And that first turn setup doesn't mean much seeing as they only cost 1 mana, so you can almost certainly get them out faster than the opponent can get their larger monsters.

2 could probably work, or perhaps simply 3.

So, you basically didn't refute anything I said about how it's still worse than a dizzier, and how would be a comparable cost to a dizzier anyway.  You know, like how a dizzier could do something that first turn, and how they can opt to dizzy something other than their designated flanker if they choose to, or counter certain abilities?  Why would you play with a 2-3 activation cost Skyrian?  Honestly, what deck would bother?
Situation 1: You have this Skyrian in play for awhile and drop a Skeletal Warlock.  Your opponent only has a Dragon Whelp.  
Situation 2: You have a Sparks in play for awhile and drop a Skeletal Warlock.  Your opponent only has a Dragon Whelp.
This doesn't seem particularly far-fetched, as long as you have at least a tiny bit of imagination.  Portable GoS is not the same as a dizzier.  If you're that paranoid of it being used somewhat effectively on defense, just make its ability free and block-dizzy.  Then it won't lock anything down, it just make them run into it and take an extra 12 damage before killing it.  Though I might bump its stats a bit, maybe to 14/14.  And I'm not really sure what this type of ability has to do with Skyrian Soldiers, exactly, but the same could be said about most of the other contested abilities.

*sigh*  Guess it'll be 2010 before we have playable one-mana monsters, and they'll still probably have bizarro abilities that have nothing to do with the card name/art/text.

Heck, let's go with a ": Gain one life" on all the disputed cards.  That should attain consensus quickly.  After all, it's clearly not broken, though it might be too flavorful for you when put on Kelar Citizen.  Might have to change it to "deal one damage to target horror" for him.

Okay, so I don't like the Skyrian balance because I don't detect any grounds in flavor, and you don't like it because you think it would cost X, where X is the GNP of Skyria, in order to be balanced.  Rather than just whine, I'll suggest some alternatives, with only "magical attunity" and flying/immunity from trapdoors to go on:

Lose this ability. Return target trap to owner's hand. [small statboost]
Lose this ability. Counter.  Failure: Uncounter.  Speed: D
Lose this ability.  Your next spell costs up to 2 less to cast.
Invisible Attack (already suggested, I know, but still seems fine to me) [small statboost]
Vanilla 17/17
Spell Immune and Ability Immune until end of turn. (Speed B ) [small statboost]

Okay, you posting that while I was writing a big whiny counterpost has just wasted a good deal of my time. Yes, I'd be happy with any one of those suggestions, and would only object to it being a 17/17 on the grounds of it being boring.

There are only 3 differences between tokens and normal monsters:
1. Tokens can never be in your hand (why second life Shadehawk from VCH Wrench doesn't work).
2. Tokens can never be in your graveyard.
3. Tokens do not trigger OTHER monster's on death abilities (such as Hadesia's Shades). (Yes the help tab description needs to be clairified).

The 3rd one means that if Fairy didn't specify "if not a token", Fairy Forest would be a 2L generator.

EDIT: O.K. I've got time for a decent post now.
a) Sorry for reposting that Gremlin deals direct damage to opponent idea yet AGAIN! It was proposed nearly from the start and ignored so basically it's out. I was just tired and mentally drained after a miss-understanding about tokens (which is how I found out the information above) and completely forgot about the Gremlins dizzing devices idea.
b) We keep talking about stats so I might as well propose this now.
1 costers should be ~30 stat points:
~35 stat points for 1.67 mono cost.
Max attack should be below 20 and max life below 30.

Alright, after careful consideration, I propose a radical change:
Kelar Citizen: Gains Fairy's "If destroyed gain 1G"
Kelar seems to have a strong mana focus. I think this would be the most tasteful ability we can give Citizen.

So then Fairy:
Draw phase: If not a token, gains Decoying until end of turn.
Balance-wise, it's on par with Ian Decoy and is useful for detering dizzing stall (just as 1 example). At the same time, your opponent can still use sniping and spells on their own turn; as can you on theirs.
Flavorwise, I point to Fairy's flavor text:
The idea was how you couldn't do anything until Navi finally shut up. It's a weak connection but I like the idea at least.

webrunner earlier suggested that Kelar Citizen topdecks an effect. He then went and added a synergy with effects. I think that, somehow, the most flavourful thing we could do is to give it an ability related to effects, no? Because yes, the other dark elves have a strong mana theme, but it doesn't mean the townsfolk do. Maybe as a race they're just natural born artificers, or are able to manipulate the magicks in these kinds of things, or something, so handling these effects and using them to their fullest is the most flavourful thing? We could try asking webrunner,s seeing as he invented the race (they're not Drow).

Also, Melrak Citizen is a really radical change, yeah.

And I say keep Fairy as is. Dark has Skeleton and Boomboxen, Grey has the basic gens and Buckets, let Light have a decent early sac card too.