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+--- Thread: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter (/showthread.php?tid=2821)
The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - masamunemaniac - 10-26-2005 08:42 PM
I'm just gathering a bunch of the cards that people have balance issues with, to see if we can get a consensus on a set of changes. Not a new idea, and not as large scale as times past either. Keeping changes small to prevent any unintentional upset :- )
Agreement
Active Time - Change cost
![[Image: gmana.gif]](http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/masamunemaniac/signature/gmana.gif)
4/sac 5 to cost 3/sac 4.Agent B32M - Change abiity from "Combat with another monster: attack is equal to the other monster's" to "Combat vs a monster: Attack is equal to greater of the other monster's or 15".
Amorphous Fleshling - Change ability from "
![[Image: abilitypointer.gif]](http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/masamunemaniac/signature/abilitypointer.gif)
Destroy Amorphous Fleshling: add attack and life to target Fleshling" to "![[Image: abilitydizzy.gif]](http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/masamunemaniac/signature/abilitydizzy.gif)
Destroy Amorphous Fleshling, add attack and life to target Fleshling".Bank Robber - Add "Sneaking Grey"
Cherry (War) - Decrease stats from 60/80 to 60/77.
Coffee Shops are Closed Day - Change from speed "C" to speed "B".
Dark Doomsceror - Gains (Decoying).
First Avrillian - Change sac from
10 to 6.Garshask - Boost from 55/35 to 55/40
Glowly Slime - Increase stats from 15/25 to 15/28.
Holy Peacemancer - Increase stats from 15/25 to 20/30.
Karashi (Clash) - Boost from 25/45 to 25/50
Kelar Sage - Increase stats from 7/25 to 7/30.
Life Infusor - Change ability from "
30 Life: Target monster is healed" to " 24 Life: Target monster is healed".Marcus (Clash) - Reduce cost to
![[Image: dmana.gif]](http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/masamunemaniac/signature/dmana.gif)
5 and sac to 7.Nate/George - Change ability from "
Destroy target monster" to "Destroy target monster, top card of deck moved to grave".Noble Sacrifice - Change ability from "Destroy target monster you control: None of the monsters you control take damage this turn" to "Destroy target monster you control: Until end of turn your monsters don't take damage, and damaging abilities affecting your monsters fail".
Red Sprite/Green Sprite: Lower cost to
![[Image: lmana.gif]](http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/masamunemaniac/signature/lmana.gif)
4, add 2 activation to merge ability.Ressurection - Boost from
4 to 3.Skeletal Warrior - Change stats from 55/30 to 60/25.
Slime Totem - Remove "Speed Summon".
Tome of Protection - Reduce cost to
6 and sac to 7.Whizrom - Boost to 65/55.
Flavour Suggestions:
Argent (War) - How about War Argent being called "Judge Finis" with an "AKA: Argent"?
Gatemaster - Change type from "Supervillain" (which he so is not) to "Scientist" (for assistant synergy).
Melrak Assassin - Gains creature type "Ninja".
Shooting Star - Add to the ability "Failure: Gain
2"Wrench (Voucher)And Civilian Wrench being called "Laria" with an "AKA: Wrench"?
---
So please, if you think the proposals will make any card closer to balance, says so. If you think a proposal will make a card further from balance, say so. If you think that the change needs to be bigger, there's more than enough people that disagree with you, so don't bother :-D. One step at a time folks.
And actual implementaion is of course up to webby, when and if he chooses, in whole or part.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - Astral Dragon - 10-26-2005 09:00 PM
I agree with everything on here except for 3 small things
First Avrillian: I almost say keep it just cause the fact that somebody thought of a way to get avril's sac value is friggen hilarious. Or maybe just decrease its sac less? 6 or 7 maybe? I know its still a lot, but life isn't exactly an easy card to find, at least not in enough numbers to make this combo a truely effective mana source. Its the rememberance of War.
Magisheild: I simply don't see this card as overpowered. Sure, its good, and I'm constantly telling people that cause they seem to overlook it a lot, but its hardly broken enough to warrant a nerf, even such a minor one.
Bakuga: No! NO! NO! Bakuga is not a broken card! He's hard enough to work with as it is considering the cost of his ability and the setup required to keep him alive and safe. Don't make him harder by eliminating a large part of his versitality. No one's suggesting nerfing Skel Warlock so he can't shoot at the end of opponents turn. Its the same principle.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - Xagar - 10-26-2005 09:17 PM
The reason why Slime Valley isn't that bad is because it only does so much to help you - it's not nearly as bad as N/G, for example.
Bakuga is ok, I think. Requires a lot of setup to work right - like many other lockdowns.
Magishield is an extremely effective counter to every kind of deck that uses creatures except dizzying and destruction. 4 counter is fine.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - Tamdrik - 10-26-2005 09:39 PM
Nate/George
Well, even Webby suggested a more drastic nerf than that (auto-mill one card a turn).
Agent B32M
I'd just as soon let him have a min attack of 45 (basic Agent).
Amorphous Fleshling
Not a high-priority thing to me, but I don't have a problem with it.
Slime Totem
Works for me.
Life Infusor
Ditto.
Active Time
Hell, I'd be fine with making it something like
to cast and 2 to sac. This thing uses up an effect slot and I suspect over half the time will be useless. The other half of the time, it won't be incredibly powerful. I'd almost suggest /3.War Cherry
I think Cherry is fine.
Coffee Shops are Closed Day
Heck, make it A speed.
Kelar Sage
Fine with me.
Holy Peacemancer
Ditto.
Noble Sacrifice
Agreed.
First Avrillian
Agree with Astral...ia.
Shooting Star
Well, Webby said something along the lines of "Shooting Star is exactly how I want it", but apart from that, I don't have a problem with your suggestion.
Battery of Souls
I think it should just be more damage for more counters. I'm not really sure where the 10 vs 40 thing came from. Right now, to get it to generate one mana, it's 30 damage, whereas your proposal would make it 18. That's just to make it an Obelisk. To get any additional generation, right now you need 60 damage, or 63 with your proposal, and it quickly becomes mostly useless beyond that. I'd be okay with something like "Generates
X, where X is the number of counters on Battery. Deal 30 damage to creature: Add one counter. [starts at zero]" That reduces the fine-tuned nibbling at doomed creatures' health, plus cuts down on the annoyance factor of massive Battery charging.Magishield
I'm okay with dropping to 4 turns, I suppose.
Dr Bakuga
As I mentioned in its own thread, I don't think that balance is warranted. Bakuga just isn't that overpowered now. Maybe if you combo it with a
2 cost decrease.Slime Valley
I'm okay with it as is, or you just make it a straight
4 cost.War Argent + VCH Wrench
Absolutely not! That would totally overpower War Argent while rendering VCH Wrench nigh useless! :)
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - sXeAndriex - 10-26-2005 10:12 PM
Very, very fast opinions.
Nate/George
I'd like a bigger nerf, but I can go with this for now.
Agent B32M
No opinion
Amorphous Fleshling
Agreed
Slime Totem
Heavily Agreed
Life Infusor
Agreed
Active Time
No Opinion
War Cherry
Agreed
Coffee Shops are Closed Day
Agreed
Kelar Sage
Agreed
Holy Peacemancer
Not sure...
Noble Sacrifice
Agreed
First Avrillian
No opinion. Though hell, I say put him back to 1/10 with 50/50 atk myself >.>
Shooting Star
Personally I say leave it as is.
Battery of Souls
Agreed, slightly hesitantly, but it seems alright.
Magishield
Leave as is.
Dr Bakuga
LEAVE AS IS
Slime Valley
Leave as is
War Argent + VCH Wrench
Call Argent 'Jenny'
And just a slight suggestion noone will like: Let MMW effect Radd Effect monsters (Gnarlborg, Sheena, Kid Radd, War Wizard) as it would any other card. MMW is becoming less and less used due to Heroic Strikes popularity (and arguable superiority) so give people a reason to run MMW again. Plus it weakens these monsters conciderably while not hurting the actual effect, which I know Webby likes (and actually, I do to. It's a fun idea.)
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - Seraphim - 10-27-2005 01:36 AM
Ditto with Andy.
What about Marcus? That guy blows ass.
(Clash)
30/45 invisible for 6
? I say he gets a stat boost or 9 sac.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - BlackFox - 10-27-2005 10:42 AM
Nate/George
Aww...The no draw ability is a really neat effect with interesting consequences.
Maybe I should have proposed something like "No draw each turn, use ability: X% chance to discard" (X is tweakable for balancing). (i.e. you can only use it so much before you're out of cards & its ability doesn't work anymore).
At least with that command supported they should be future cards with no draw abilities.
Agent B32M
As much as I'd like this change. Walking reusable MMW that can be sacced and replayed at no cost to yourself. It needs something to slow it down.
Amorphous Fleshling
Life Infusor
War Cherry
Slime Totem
It has it coming.
Active Time
Coffee Shops are Closed Day
We'll have to see.
Kelar Sage
Holy Peacemancer
Shooting Star
Look better, but time will tell.
Magishield
Still a nasty card.
Slime Valley
The trouble is how to reduce its general use without crippling it in specific decks. for example, giving it a
activation cost would greatly weaken a Slime Valley+Abandoned Fortress deck which relies on having many out at one time, but wouldn't really matter for a dark deck which just uses it for g-splash.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - Shadowhunter - 10-27-2005 10:42 AM
I agree with all the proposed changes except for:
Battery Of Souls: I think it's fine. Making it do 12 or so damage would pile up quicker (10 on a force field instead of 12). If any change is made, 12 damage would be good.
War Cherry: Leave as-is. Her ability is a drawback, and gaining life usually costs more than attack to play the card. Because attack's used more. So leave it.
Slime Valley: Fine as-is. We're never going to be completely happy with it, you know.
Magishield: LEAVE IT. It encourages play styles besides beatdown. >_>
Bakuga: He's good. If anything, he should be buffed slightly..
Nate/George: Mill two or three. It'd combo great with Skeletal Chimera, but in most cases is a serious drawback. LOOK AT THE FREAKIN' ETERNAL SWORDS! They're waaaaaay underpowered. Double the cost of NG and generally nowhere near as good. They need to be buffed drastically. And NG needs to be nerfed bad.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - Xagar - 10-27-2005 11:34 AM
Magishield not only encourages non-beatdown, it encourages beatdown even more! Beatdown can easily kill shotgun if all of the damage is halved.
Also, Life Infusor would be fine at 20, or maybe even 15 life.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - Shadowhunter - 10-27-2005 11:36 AM
Hrm...yes, I see your point...but it's got potential either way.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - BlackFox - 10-27-2005 01:32 PM
Just a quick comparison of shield vs. sac:
Sac:
100% damage reduction for 1 turn.
6
and two cards. (you can easily use a chookie, gloop or some other worthless monster for the sac)Shield
50% damage reduction for 10 turns (since it only decrements on your turn)
8
and one card.Cutting 2 turns off the shield is a good start, but it could use more.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - Giedrius - 10-27-2005 02:23 PM
Just a minor thing, I think that Peacemancer would do better with a speed boost than a stat upgrade(or it could have both), it's just about the only dizzier that loses speed races to Kelar Dragoon and the other D speeds (which hurts).
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - moonfish - 10-27-2005 02:32 PM
I agree with everything on the list but the following:
Shooting Star: it's the not so effective little but expensive brother of the rest. It seems pretty fine to me, because there are no alternatives for light. I use it in several decks effectively, just because there's no better bet. Sometimes it's good that you have to row with what you have.
Dr Bakuga: he's fine.
Slime Valley: fine as it is, it's as useful as a 3 cost splash creature. Why can't effects be as effective as creatures?
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - masamunemaniac - 10-27-2005 04:14 PM
Righty, I've set up a spreadsheet for each balance proposal, and have marked each person's given opinion for the change with a Y(es), N(o) or X(Not sure). This is so that I can keep a numerical log of the responses instead of getting a vague feel of general opinion. Based on the total responses, I will adjust/remove the proposals, and keep the opinion recorded as is unless a new opinion is given to replace it. I'll also add new balances as the board brings suggestions up.
I'll post here before each update I make to the first post, logging the changes. I'll PM or post my opinions summary should anyone request.
---
New Balance:
Dark Doomsceror - Add "Decoying" to him, reduce stats to 60/55 (-5/-5)
Will make his counterdamage ability useful, and stat penalty to compensate.
Dropped Balance:
Dr Bakuga - Dizzy at turn end
Well, the verdict here was unanimous. Perhaps Blackfox might have agreed, but he didn't say so here.
Total Assent:
Amorphous Fleshling, Slime Totem, Life Infusor, Active Time, Coffee Shops are Closed Day, Noble Sacrifice
Near Complete Agreement:
Nate/George*, Agent B32M*, War Cherry, Kelar Sage, Holy Peacemancer, First Avrillian, Shooting Star, Battery of Souls
(Blackfox: Are the N/G and B32M ideas yes or no for you? And Shadowhunter: Are you ok with the N/G proposal for an initial nerf?)
Mixed Opinions:
Magishield, Slime Valley
Changes:
-Slime Valley will have the proposal of:
Change cost to
4 (for all Valleys), sac to 6, and change the 2nd Valley clause to "If you control multiple Slime Valleys, sac is 5"But for this reply if you're A) Against any nerf, B ) For cost increase with no sac increase, C) For cost increase and solid sac increase, D) Suggestion as is... This is to see how much nerf, if any, is needed.
-Corrections to Battery of Souls info... It was late last night and I got a bit stupid.
Arguments:
On First Avrillian... this was actually my combo idea, which after presentation, lead to the fairly successful creation of 8~10 card instakill decks, due to the ease at which the huge amount of
could be generated by a 2nd turn Life/3rd turn sac.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - sXeAndriex - 10-27-2005 04:54 PM
Honestly, Shadowhunter is right, but milling two might be a bit drastic. I'd be more happy with mill one and an activation cost, or mill one and 12% chance to discard a card at random upon use.
Still against the slime valley change, I'm saying just leave it as it is (unless someone comes up with something really good.)
As for Dark Doomy, he does need a change, but I wanna check his cost and comparison to other creatures before I comment.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - Frater Alban - 10-27-2005 05:01 PM
Doomsceror
Decoying is fine, but can be as much as a drawback as a positive thing...it blocks your own abilities too, and since doomsceror is pretty beatsticky, and costs much more than decoy, decoying lets it die faster. I don't think the stat reduction is necessary, but if you insist, I won't complain.
Coffee shops are Closed day:
Make it speed A. PLEASE. It's currently among the most useless cards in cmc.
Now it can stop a swimsuit(duh, they can't dizzy one of your monsters? well, you stopped swimsuit, but in exchange, dizzied ALL of your monsters...), the eternal swords and tarafang, mallet...can't stop n/g, can't stop warhammer...
A speed would really add a lot of playability to this card. If you want to test it at B speed first, I guess it's a step in the right direction...
N/G
Double-mill on activation. EDIT:Double-mill is drastic, you say???
Well...I THINK that heavy target-RESTRICTION, heavy MANA cost both to play and to use are worse than double-mill. Even if n/g double-mills, tarafang will be infinitely worse. And is currently considered balanced???
Slime valley
4G casting cost, 5G sac, no other complicated stuff. Speedsummon is a huge issue, and gloops have 'zilla, slimes and slime walls who each provide great synergy to a great card. Besides, slimes, or grey in general has enough ways to get mana...cutting slime valley's sac won't hurt much.
And it would STILL be better than fairy forest and gremlin pit, you know.
Holy peacemancer/Holy priest
I'd reduce the costs of these two guys to 3
, while leaving their sac at 5. Not too opposed to your idea, though.Rest
Agree. More or less.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - azulknight - 10-27-2005 07:23 PM
Agree for N/G, B32M, Totem, Life Infusor, Active Time, War Cherry, CSACD, Sage, Peacemancer, Noble Sacrifice, and Magishield
Disagree with Avrillian, Shooting Star, Battery of Souls
Don't have an opinion on Fleshling, Valley
Nate/George I'd prefer at 2 mill, since it's still a reuseable kill at a good speed for a lot less than the other swords.
I would like Magishield at 3 turns, but 4 is a start.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - moonfish - 10-27-2005 07:37 PM
Since I didn't specify in my previous post:
I'm against anything beyond milling one card or a simple cost increase for N/G.
Also, I'd appreciate some opinions on creatures vs effects, mostly regarding Slime Valley and 3 mana rush creatures.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - Tamdrik - 10-27-2005 07:55 PM
Just to put the proposed BoS nerf into perspective:
Gen
=> 18 damageGen
2 => 63 damageGen
3 => 135 damageGen
4 => 273 damageBoS just isn't that powerful as it is, for mana generation, considering the setup it requires. The nerf would make it useless. About the most broken thing about it now is using it on VCH Wrench (not counting Noble Sacrifice, which obviously needs to be fixed). And my suggestion would fix the Wrench problem, while yours would be of questionable utility there (you could zap a Wrench 4 times without her dying, so up to 5 zots before you need to sac and replace your Battery, or just hit the next Wrench thrice).
If you want, you can add "Max 8 counters" or somesuch to my BoS suggestion, but I don't know that it's really necessary. Might want to add 'non-token' to prevent Gloop abuse.
Other notes:
I'm fine with Doomsceror at current stats + decoying for reasons already stated by others.
I actually kind of like Aldgar's suggestion of
3 for the Holy Clerics.To echo Seraphim, Clash Marcus does enjoy forcibly ejecting air upon certain beasts of burden. Actually, War Marcus pretty much does, too, but probably less than Dark Spybot. I suspect a round of
cost decreases are in order, though for War Marcus, that might be better applied to his activation cost.
RE: The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter - sXeAndriex - 10-27-2005 07:57 PM
Aldgar Omk Wrote:N/GI'm a little hazey on what you're saying here, but if you mean that Tarafang and the other swords arn't balanced in comparison to Nate/George... yeah, thats been stated.
Double-mill on activation. EDIT:Double-mill is drastic, you say???
Well...I THINK that heavy target-RESTRICTION, heavy MANA cost both to play and to use are worse than double-mill. Even if n/g double-mills, tarafang will be infinitely worse. And is currently considered balanced???
Double mill is a drastic step, not only does it makes Skeletal Chrimera much more powerful, but because I personally feel that nerfing it that hard is just a knee jerk reaction, without putting thought into the fact that we can rebalance the other swords (and possibly skeletal warhammer.) If anything, why not just try it at one mill, and see how it goes. It's not like we can't simply go back and balance it again, but we're DOUBLING one suggested penalty without even giving the first one a chance and seeing how things go.
Just saying it's better to be safe than sorry.