ADV, AFH, CMC, ETC
1mana monsters - Printable Version

+- ADV, AFH, CMC, ETC (http://107.170.157.187:8000/forum)
+-- Forum: Cardmaster Conflict (/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Forum: Balance (/forumdisplay.php?fid=31)
+--- Thread: 1mana monsters (/showthread.php?tid=4631)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

RE: 1mana monsters - Tamdrik - 11-02-2006 10:12 AM

I actually kind of like the "Discard a card, target monster gains +12/+12 (or whatever)" idea for Citizen, as long as there's not a "Kelar Armorer" monster forthcoming.  Combine with Scholar and you have a nice military-industrial economy thing going.

As for Mubble, how about [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif] Dizzy target creature, return Mubble to hand. (D speed).  There, no nerfing of Mubble Woods required.

RE: 1mana monsters - sXeAndriex - 11-02-2006 03:59 PM

Tamdrik Wrote:As for Mubble, how about [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif] Dizzy target creature, return Mubble to hand. (D speed). There, no nerfing of Mubble Woods required.
Would that work? It sounds like it would work...

Dorii Wrote:It makes much more sense to me that a bunch of trained soldiers would gain a synergy, than a bunch of people that just happen to be the same race gaining synergy.
Then lets go back and remove all that slime synergy.
Also, Manamancer and Kelar Sentry. Oh, and all the horrors and fleshlings too.

Dorii Wrote:Kelar Citizen's ability does pretty much allow it to kill the other 1 mana monsters and live - against some of the monsters and with enough effects, indefinitely.
If we only see 1 mana creatures and possibly some 2 mana creatures. Every single dark creature can hold their own (given time and effective ability use, same as your requirements for Kelar Cit) against 1 and 2 mana creatures as well- but also can do a solid amout of damage to cards costing 3+ mana as well.

Dorii Wrote:But really, Citizens make for good Manamancer synergy
Has nothing to do with the ability.
Dorii Wrote:and gaining temp life every turn just makes them less susceptible to being picked off by Slime Travellers/Red Goops/Snipers etc.
A fair about of snipers and red goops kill them as is, with the draw phase/end phase change you suggested only snipers do. But then again, why would they want to? It's not like they're the slightest threat. An orb is more dangerous than a Kelar Citizen.

Dorii Wrote:I still don't see what'd be wrong with Draw phase/End turn temp life.
It doesn't help is really the problem. Sure, now they won't die before 'summoning sickness' wears off.

To sum this up, I have three major problems with Kelar Cit as it stands:
A) 1 mana creatures are early game material, a time when neither player has a field of 5 generators. Most of the time, the cit will be lucky to be gaining +10 before the opponent drops something that can kill it with ease, and take minimal damage.
Later in the game, any wall is better. ANY. There's another balance arguement concerning the fact that something like 80% of the current walls are too weak.
B) Ian Decoy is better, non-unique, and has the same mana cost. The only think it lacks is manamancer synergy, which I don't really get. Manamancer works best in a deck ment to rush them out to buff the mana gain. A deck that doesn't rely on generators. ...get where I'm going?
C) It's a Kelar. Give it racial synergy. I'll admit, this is my weakest arguement as we balanced Melrak Follower without giving it Follower synergy. However, we have soldier synergy x2, and slime synergy with other 1 mana cards. I don't see why we should just ignore the possibility, if we don't have some other suggestion that is great (as I thought the Melrak Follower one was.)

RE: 1mana monsters - webrunner - 11-02-2006 04:05 PM

What I was thinking with the ability was that they gain protection from buildings and such, being citizens, if anyone cares.

RE: 1mana monsters - sXeAndriex - 11-02-2006 04:19 PM

Oh I more than care, and it makes some sense. I'm really curious if you'd mind a non-effect based ability though. It's been danced around in discussion, but I'd love to hear a solid answer so we can hopefully move this along.

RE: 1mana monsters - webrunner - 11-02-2006 04:32 PM

no, anything's fine, it's just a silly idea I had. dark elf synergy of some kind would be decent.

RE: 1mana monsters - Fighter143 - 11-02-2006 04:40 PM

How about, Draw phase gets +1/+1 if you control another dark elf

or has +2/+2 if you control atleast 3 dark elfs?

RE: 1mana monsters - masamunemaniac - 11-02-2006 06:37 PM

Yawn...

I'm sure that some of us have some far more interesting Dark Elf synergy ideas.

...

Oh, about discard, dark elf gains +12/+12 - I'd say that's prolly too much. That's probably about [Image: gmana.gif]3.5 worth of statgain (relative to equips/katana) just from a discard, which seems a little powerful to me, especially on a one mana monster. It completely puts Meilar to shame too, (though he could do with a boost admittedly).

RE: 1mana monsters - LtSterling - 11-02-2006 06:45 PM

whoever said their ability needs to be intresting?

grey(gray) is all about mana right?  How about it has some mana gain power like "[Image: abilitydizzy.gif][Image: abilitypointer.gif]gain one [Image: gmana.gif] and dizzy all dark elves"  so its like a very poor version of manamancer.

RE: 1mana monsters - sXeAndriex - 11-02-2006 06:47 PM

For reference sake, the following are 90% of the suggestions for Kelar Citizen. Missing are ones Webrunner personally didn't want, those that were replaced by another idea (the newest version is shown in that case), or those that were redundant (all the "bottom most" suggestions. I just picked the most popular one.)
Note: Some of these were rejected for very good reasons, however they appear here so that anyone who wants to make a new suggestion can see if there was something like it already on the balance slate.
Suggestions Wrote:Kelar Citizen - Into play: The bottommost effect in your deck is put on top

Kelar Citizen - [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif] Destroy Kelar Citizen: Target dark elf gains Entrenching until its owner's next draw phase.

Kelar Citizen - Gen [Image: gmana.gif][Image: gmana.gif]

Kelar Citizen - Draw Phase: All dark elves have 50% chance of gaining +1/+1

Kelar Citizen - [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif][Image: gmana.gif] Target dark elf gains +3/+3

Kelar Citizen - [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif][Image: gmana.gif]2 Loses this ability and gains +20/+20, soldier type

Kelar Citizen - [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif] Target Dark Elf gains 10 life until end of turn

Kelar Citizen - If destroyed gain [Image: gmana.gif]

Kelar Citizen - [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: gmana.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif] Discard a card. Target Kelar gains +12/+12 till end of the turn

Kelar Citizen - [Image: abilitypointer.gif]2[Image: gmana.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif] Discard a card, deal 5X damage to target player, where X=Number of Kelars in play

Kelar Citizen - Draw phase: gain +1/+1 if you control another dark elf

Kelar Citizen - If you control 3 dark elves: Gains +2/+2

Personally, I like the [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif][Image: gmana.gif] Target dark elf gains +3/+3 idea. It's solid, provides racial synergy, and doesn't suck.

RE: 1mana monsters - masamunemaniac - 11-02-2006 07:04 PM

sXeAndriex Wrote:Personally, I like the [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif][Image: gmana.gif] Target dark elf gains +3/+3 idea. It's solid, provides racial synergy, and doesn't suck.
Sounds good to me.

RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 11-02-2006 07:26 PM

Mubble: [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif] Bounce, dizzy target monster Speed_5
Sounds good to me. Mubble Woods becomes a 1[Image: lmana.gif] cost, delayed Swimsuit. Only question I have is should it bounce or not with failure (i.e. should non-token Mubble be killable if it fails to use its ability or only killable when it comes into play)?

Kelar Citizen: Sure.

RE: 1mana monsters - Tamdrik - 11-05-2006 03:34 AM

So why did a lot of the 1-mana monsters get crappy abilities instead of solid, popular ones?  

A lot of people liked the activatable immunity for Skyrian, but it gets the abusable (with BoS/Inquisitor + Equip Armor/Glomp), but generally not particularly useful activatable lifebar that I think nobody supported.  

The bounce/dizzy Mubble option seemed to be a winner, but instead we get the crappy 50% one-shot dizzy that still provides zero motivation for playing Mubble without the Woods, and little, if any, motivation to play the Woods.  

Gremlin's new ability, if anything, strongly encourages use with Gremlin Pit, and still cavalierly discards a wonderful opportunity for a flavorful ability that plays on what a gremlin actually is.

Kelar Citizen lacked consensus, though there was some building for [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif][Image: gmana.gif] +3/+3 to target dark elf, which while still very weak (it could easily be free), is still better than the useless effects-based temp life (on your own turn only, no less).

And what happened to stat changes?  Like, for instance, if Kelar Citizen's going to have a useless, pointless ability, it should be something like 16/16. If it's going to have the weak, but not completely senseless +3/+3 ability, it should be around 15/15.

RE: 1mana monsters - azulknight - 11-05-2006 06:05 AM

...? I thought the .cscs changed before the immunity, bounce/dizzy, and dark elf-boost were introduced? Also, I approve all of those if they're going to be used.

RE: 1mana monsters - masamunemaniac - 11-05-2006 06:44 AM

webrunner Wrote:I think the stat changes are extremly minor and don't need to be covered as early. Maybe go through the 2 costers first, and then do the 1 and 2 coster stats together (because if you're 'afraid' of getting into 2 coster territory, what happens if later the '2 coster territory' changes when you do the 2 costers?)
The stat changes will get covered at a later point.

azulknight Wrote:I'm not sure where I heard it, but I remember someone saying that the gremlins of CMC were specifically not mischief-loving imps... And we have the niche card aspect.
If azulknight heard correctly (which could be verified by asking webrunner), then a device related ability would be unflavourful.
webrunner Wrote:I would prefer if the 1/2 mana proposals didn't specifically use other specific cards (excepting themselves, i suppose): no kel'sor, no manamancer.
And it would be a specific hoser, working with only a specific few cards.

azulknight Wrote:...? I thought the .cscs changed before the immunity, bounce/dizzy, and dark elf-boost were introduced? Also, I approve all of those if they're going to be used.
Azul is correct - webrunner can't well introduce the abilities prior to us suggesting them, can he?

Anyway, I guess webrunner just wanted to try out a few different things, and maybe find a home for the new temporary ability status effects he made. Yeah, it might not have worked too well, but the abilities aren't stuck. We have continued this balance thread since the update of the cscs, and webrunner's still contributed (and as such acknowledged that there may be need for change), so the complained about abilities are not in any way set in stone.

RE: 1mana monsters - Tamdrik - 11-05-2006 03:25 PM

Ok, I guess I didn't notice the csc update until awhile after it'd been implemented, then.

And a gremlin is a little demon soldier with an axe in this universe?  Why?  It's not anywhere else, so why call it a gremlin?  It's like making a vanilla, abilityless Siren, or giving it an ability like "all other Sirens get +1 attack" or something.  Or, as I mentioned earlier, a "Long Range Artillery" monster that is 5/75 with no ability.  Or an "MX-27 Sniperbot" that is a 0/70 robot wall with D damage: 0% and Decoying.  Because, you know, Snipers are decoying walls in this universe.

RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 11-05-2006 04:44 PM

While the origin of a gremlin may be a mischievous demon/imp, that does not mean all gremlins must follow that example.
Orcs, for instance, "officially" were smaller-than-men ugly humanoids. They later were changed by various sources to be given more animalistic features and a larger, more brutish frame.

Given the picture on the card, CMC's gremlins share the same quality as the mythological gremlins in being little demons. However, that mean face and axe imply a more malicious rather than mischievous attribute to them. The dark aspect of the card also suggests a more destructive intent rather than a desire to cause frustration and confusion.
The mythological gremlin seems more fitting as a grey monster, and I really don't think it's necessary to completely change Gremlin.

RE: 1mana monsters - masamunemaniac - 11-05-2006 05:29 PM

Well damn, I was writing up a big meaningful post, and I accidentally closed the tab from a misclick. I can't be bothered rewriting so I'll do an abridged and quite possibly nonsensical version:

Gremlins and Goblins - what if their names were the other way around? Goblins were little killer demonoid things, gremlins created, tinkered with and used explosives? Probably be a bit more in line with more mainstream flavour. I'm not suggesting we change at all, just a thought.

Also, flavour with Light is just crazy. Birds, yeah Birds, are able to take on demons, battle hardened warriors and whatnot. They're crazy powerful considering that they're birds. I mean, Mystic Bird? Spirit Bird? Mana Bird? Why not things like Roc, Garuda, Siris, Gryphon (okay it's just semibird), and the like? Well, it all seemed fairly arbitrary in Prime, so Adjective Bird will suffice.

But think, Gremlin and Goblin were probably just arbitrarily assigned names as an afterthought to cards that had been designed, or if not, they probably weren't really considered in making up the abilities. But what if you went along the lines of what was done for Light, that way flavour wouldn't be an issue? Make them Adjective Demons, like Murderous Demon (Gremlin) and Pyromaniacal Demon (Goblin)? They'd fit perfectly flavour-wise, but I don't think it'd really fit.

Also, at random: Since when could Brick Walls regenerate themselves? Since when could Fairies merge into each other? Since when could Doves survive a being sniped? Since when could Slimes create acid rain? Since when could any kind of scout kill things with extreme prejudice? WSince when was mana carriable in buckets? Prime screams out subtle nonsense when you think about it, in fact CMC in general does.

Anyway, what the hell, this made so much more sense first time round. I don't know where this is meant to be going, or whether it's going anywhere at all. Damn misclick ruined this post. I'm annoyed.

RE: 1mana monsters - sXeAndriex - 11-05-2006 06:23 PM

masamunemaniac Wrote:Also, flavour with Light is just crazy. Birds, yeah Birds, are able to take on demons, battle hardened warriors and whatnot. They're crazy powerful considering that they're birds. I mean, Mystic Bird? Spirit Bird? Mana Bird? Why not things like Roc, Garuda, Siris, Gryphon (okay it's just semibird), and the like? Well, it all seemed fairly arbitrary in Prime, so Adjective Bird will suffice.
Mystic, Spirit and Mana always harkened to the native american lore that permeates North American culture. Permenates? Something like that.

masamunemaniac Wrote:But think, Gremlin and Goblin were probably just arbitrarily assigned names as an afterthought to cards that had been designed, or if not, they probably weren't really considered in making up the abilities. But what if you went along the lines of what was done for Light, that way flavour wouldn't be an issue? Make them Adjective Demons, like Murderous Demon (Gremlin) and Pyromaniacal Demon (Goblin)? They'd fit perfectly flavour-wise, but I don't think it'd really fit.
I... think you're being a little excessive here >.>
The cards seem perfectly in flavor as they are. Goblins have been known through out MANY types of fantasy to blow themselves up. Two examples coming to mind immediately would be Age of Wonders and Magic the Gathering.
As for Gremlins, the only abilities related to it in the beginning were being spawned by a pit. That doesn't seem odd at all to me.

masamunemaniac Wrote:Since when could Fairies merge into each other?
Since Legend of Zelda got porn.

masamunemaniac Wrote:Since when could any kind of scout kill things with extreme prejudice?
Since the time of Rome.

masamunemaniac Wrote:Since when was mana carriable in buckets?
Since the fantasy industrial revolution. They have it on tap, though prices have been going up due to the recent questionable war with Kel'sor.

This post really has nothing to do with balance, but was ALOT of fun. I guess I can get on to serious stuff now *sigh*
Tamdrik Wrote:A lot of people liked the activatable immunity for Skyrian, but it gets the abusable (with BoS/Inquisitor + Equip Armor/Glomp)
How is that broken? I mean... that combo works with pretty much any card in existance. Maybe I'm misreading something.

Tamdrik Wrote:Kelar Citizen lacked consensus, though there was some building for [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif][Image: gmana.gif] +3/+3 to target dark elf, which while still very weak (it could easily be free), is still better than the useless effects-based temp life (on your own turn only, no less).
I would happily support it being free. Emphatically support it, even.

RE: 1mana monsters - masamunemaniac - 11-05-2006 06:34 PM

sXeAndriex Wrote:
Tamdrik Wrote:A lot of people liked the activatable immunity for Skyrian, but it gets the abusable (with BoS/Inquisitor + Equip Armor/Glomp)
How is that broken? I mean... that combo works with pretty much any card in existance. Maybe I'm misreading something.
There was consensus for activateable immunity to Skyrian (it was actually after the fact, but Tamdrik's acknowledged that he missed some changes making this a little less meaningful, but anyway), but instead it got activateable Lifebar, which is abusable (with....
Also, The key here is that Skyrian can turn lifebar on and off, thus you boost first, *then* activate lifebar and use BoS or whatever.

sXeAndriex Wrote:
Tamdrik Wrote:Kelar Citizen lacked consensus, though there was some building for [Image: abilitypointer.gif][Image: abilitydizzy.gif][Image: gmana.gif] +3/+3 to target dark elf, which while still very weak (it could easily be free), is still better than the useless effects-based temp life (on your own turn only, no less).
I would happily support it being free. Emphatically support it, even.
That ability would work similarly to Nanobot statwise, assuming 2 Citizens out, but it's also cheaper but more limited. A +2/+3 I could go for, a [Image: gmana.gif] activation is probably a bit expensive, a +3/+3... what the heck, grey's about balanced stats, right? Well, if it is a little too strong it can be changed later.

RE: 1mana monsters - sXeAndriex - 11-05-2006 07:14 PM

masamunemaniac Wrote:
sXeAndriex Wrote:
Tamdrik Wrote:A lot of people liked the activatable immunity for Skyrian, but it gets the abusable (with BoS/Inquisitor + Equip Armor/Glomp)
How is that broken? I mean... that combo works with pretty much any card in existance. Maybe I'm misreading something.
There was consensus for activateable immunity to Skyrian (it was actually after the fact, but Tamdrik's acknowledged that he missed some changes making this a little less meaningful, but anyway), but instead it got activateable Lifebar, which is abusable (with....
I read that, just didn't quote it all to save space (which, in retrospect, makes no sense as space is unlimited.) From what I can see: BoS/Glomp would work the exact same way on any creature, BoS/Equip Armor would work better on a creature without lifebar, and Inquisitor would work slightly better on a lifebar creature, but I wouldn't pack my deck with one mana skyrians for that.
I'm not saying I like the lifebar idea at all (I heavily prefer the immunities), just that I don't get that 'break combo.' I guess it really doesn't matter, as we're probably changing anyway.