1mana monsters - Printable Version

1mana monsters - Printable Version

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RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 10-30-2006 07:27 PM

masamunemaniac Wrote:Also, Melrak Citizen is a really radical change, yeah.

You win this round masa.

This round...

RE: 1mana monsters - azulknight - 10-30-2006 08:24 PM

Tamdrik Wrote:
Dorii Wrote:Seeing as webrunner semignored some of the balances in this thread, I think that the abilities he's gone for are what he wants the monsters to have for flavour purposes. As in, he wants Gremlin to be more a small Demon than a device wrecker, no?
This is like having a monster called "Long Range Artillery" that is a 5/75 abilityless wall. Its name screams a certain type of ability, but you're content with "but webrunner likes it this way".

I'm not sure where I heard it, but I remember someone saying that the gremlins of CMC were specifically not mischief-loving imps... And we have the niche card aspect. Why do I want to stick Gremlin cards in my deck if they will only net me one mana on sac, deal 17 damage a pop, get killed easily, and dizzy devices? Note that I am not factoring Pit in here. Pit's good already as a constant supply of 17 damage or sac mana. The card by itself is my concern, which takes up a chunk of my Spare Change.

Tamdrik Wrote:Okay, so I don't like the Skyrian balance because I don't detect any grounds in flavor, and you don't like it because you think it would cost X, where X is the GNP of Skyria, in order to be balanced. Rather than just whine, I'll suggest some alternatives, with only "magical attunity" and flying/immunity from trapdoors to go on:

Lose this ability. Return target trap to owner's hand. [small statboost]
Lose this ability. Counter. Failure: Uncounter. Speed: D
Lose this ability. Your next spell costs up to 2 less to cast.
Invisible Attack (already suggested, I know, but still seems fine to me) [small statboost]
Vanilla 17/17
Spell Immune and Ability Immune until end of turn. (Speed B ) [small statboost]

Trap-centric = niche usefulness, which webrunner stated he doesn't want.
Counter = useful on occasion (D-speed limits, one-use, can't use it if Skyrian dies).
Spell-cheapening = useful.
Invisible Attack = somewhat useful.
Vanilla = Works fine.
Immunity = interesting, and relatively flavorful.

Gildward Wrote:Alright, after careful consideration, I propose a radical change:
Kelar Citizen: Gains Fairy's "If destroyed gain 1G"
Kelar seems to have a strong mana focus. I think this would be the most tasteful ability we can give Citizen.

So then Fairy:
Draw phase: If not a token, gains Decoying until end of turn.
Balance-wise, it's on par with Ian Decoy and is useful for detering dizzing stall (just as 1 example). At the same time, your opponent can still use sniping and spells on their own turn; as can you on theirs.
Flavorwise, I point to Fairy's flavor text:
The idea was how you couldn't do anything until Navi finally shut up. It's a weak connection but I like the idea at least.

I really don't want to see Fairy changed. They constantly emit light, so it's quite flavorful. Decoying's from 3 sets over, and Prime's the original core set. It screws up Red Sprite and Green Sprite's merging. I'd play bucket or manamancer over citizen most of the time anyway. Also, I find it a little odd the dead corpse of your citizen provides G mana...

RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 10-31-2006 12:37 AM

Forget about Fairy, masa already pointed out what I pointed out and forgot that web would like effect interaction with Kelar Citizen.
Really if the temp life seems too weak, would perm life at something like +1 for each effect every draw phase be better? Basically early play means it has a chance to withstand a blow from a 3-4 cost monster.

On a side note Skyrian has lifebar which wasn't until 2 expansions away from Clash, so that whole cronology argument is pretty thin, especially considering how much it's getting in the way of thinking up creative ideas for all these cards...

I'd rather have my temp decoying idea that I gave to Fairy than the Spell/Ability immune idea for Skyrian. Given how weak it is, that's a nerf imo as you won't be able to boost it with spells or abilities.

But on to bigger fish:

5 out = 170 damage a turn. Need suggestions for something new.
Possibly (all assuming if not a token):
Into play: All soldiers gain invisible attack until end of turn.
Into play: All soldier gain entrenching until draw phase.

RE: 1mana monsters - masamunemaniac - 10-31-2006 05:38 AM

K-Army Guy: Why not change it to 'If not a token: Soldiers have +3 attack when attacking monsters', a la Melrak Bearer? If it'd still be too much for when playing them en masse, then +2 attack?

RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 10-31-2006 12:54 PM

The problem with that is it pushes K-Army Guy into the 20+ damage for stat break-point range.
I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion, just that there seems to be a taboo against 1 costers that can deal 20 or more damage to another monster. My problem with that taboo, however, is that K-Army Guy is a dark monster with low life, and those kinds of dark monsters typically are capable of bringing down monsters that are 1-2 cost above them:

So is +20 attack for 1 costers fine as long as it's part of an ability and not the base stats?

RE: 1mana monsters - masamunemaniac - 10-31-2006 02:29 PM

Well, if it was the nontoken version only...

You could probably knock the attack down to 17 to compensate, so that you require two or more to reach the breakpoint.

RE: 1mana monsters - webrunner - 10-31-2006 02:32 PM

Can we possibly try to avoid too many 'if not a tokens'? I dont feel it to be an elegant solution.

RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 10-31-2006 04:21 PM

Sorry web, but the only way we can make THE card have an ability that its token doesn't have is through being able to put in hand and being able to have in the grave.
Unless there's a reason to have the individual card over having it's generator, there wouldn't be a reason to play the card itself unless it was different from its token.

RE: 1mana monsters - webrunner - 10-31-2006 04:32 PM

Something might be able to be done that would make you prefer to use a Gremlin then a Gremlin Pit, but an "is not a token" ability I dont think is the answer.

RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 10-31-2006 05:11 PM

Agreed.
However, I'm clueless as to what unless you want to nerf gen'd tokens like how Fairy Circle works (which I'm pretty sure you don't as it's no better than the "if not a token" solution).

If worse comes to worse, we can just make the tokens = the actual cards for now (Mubble is already that way) and save trying to distinguish the card from its token for the next expansion.

RE: 1mana monsters - masamunemaniac - 10-31-2006 05:13 PM

Well, into play abilities. Like 'Opponent takes 5 damage' or ' [Image: dmana.gif]

1 20 life: Gain a Gremlin in hand', or something.

Into play abilities are the way to go, if the clumsy 'nontoken only' route is closed off.

RE: 1mana monsters - webrunner - 10-31-2006 05:15 PM

we could nerf the gens a bit?

but yeah into play abilities would also work.

RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 10-31-2006 05:35 PM

Alright, into play abilities (proposals):
Fairy: Do we need to change this to gain [Image: lmana.gif]

when comes into play or is just one "if not a token" conditioned card fine?
Gremlin: Into play, opponent takes 5 damage.
K-Army Guy: Into play, all opponent's monsters lose 2 attack.
Mubble: Already has an agreed on ability, I'd suggest just nerfing the ones produced by Mubble Woods.

RE: 1mana monsters - masamunemaniac - 10-31-2006 05:52 PM

Fairy's fine as is.

Probably easier to nerf Mubble Woods itself - probably an extra [Image: lmana.gif]

1 to the cost, or lower its sac. It's randomy, and you know how balance feels about randomy.

Gremlin: Wow, that's a great idea!

K-Army Guy: Something soldier related for synergistic goodness? Like all soldiers gain +1/+0 (with base attack reduced to 18).

RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 10-31-2006 06:05 PM

Mubble Woods: 3 [Image: lmana.gif]

cost to bring out a Mubble, much like Khrima's Tower is 3 [Image: dmana.gif]

for a K-Guy sound good (3 cost at current 2 [Image: lmana.gif]

sac and of course only 1 at a time unlike Khrima's Tower)?

K-Army Guy: How about: Into play, all your soldiers gain +0/+5.
I'd perfer life boosts simply because you can take them to a higher level without fear of the effects of swarming (although 19/28 is quite powerful so base stat change to 17/1 to make 17/6 into play sound good?).

RE: 1mana monsters - masamunemaniac - 10-31-2006 06:23 PM

Mubble Woods: I am completely dumbfounded by your suggestion. I must have misunderstood something. You're suggesting that we triple the price of a generated mubble??

K-Army Guy: Well, lifegain seems to be an offcolor ability, and +5 life to each sounds like a lot, especially in a soldier themed deck. Maybe +2 life just to pass breakpoints, seeing as the dark 1manas are considered better by their stat distribution.

RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 10-31-2006 06:38 PM

Mubble: The price is triple if you lose the monster, it's normal if you sac it after using it's ability. Sense tokens don't benefit from sac site and Swimsuit is free dizzing, would a 2L cost be acceptable? Otherwise it's a Shrine that has a 50% chance of dizzing an opponent's monster (though delayed sense Mubbles come into play dizzy).
But that VERY poor logic aside, even at 2L cost for the tokens would you still put a regular Mubble in your deck seeing as how it's a one-time use?

K-Guy: Point taken about dark monsters and life gain. +2 life sounds fine.

RE: 1mana monsters - azulknight - 10-31-2006 08:07 PM

Blue_Elite Wrote:Forget about Fairy, masa already pointed out what I pointed out and forgot that web would like effect interaction with Kelar Citizen.
Really if the temp life seems too weak, would perm life at something like +1 for each effect every draw phase be better? Basically early play means it has a chance to withstand a blow from a 3-4 cost monster.

On a side note Skyrian has lifebar which wasn't until 2 expansions away from Clash, so that whole cronology argument is pretty thin, especially considering how much it's getting in the way of thinking up creative ideas for all these cards...

I'd rather have my temp decoying idea that I gave to Fairy than the Spell/Ability immune idea for Skyrian. Given how weak it is, that's a nerf imo as you won't be able to boost it with spells or abilities.

But it's Prime, the ORIGINAL SET. There should be at least some things preserved. And I didn't like Skyrian having lifebar anyway. And temporary decoying means they can still cast on their turn and it doesn't have decoying right when it comes into play. Mana gain enables higher-cost cards, which many of the fairies are.

Blue_Elite Wrote:Alright, into play abilities (proposals):
Fairy: Do we need to change this to gain when comes into play or is just one "if not a token" conditioned card fine?
Gremlin: Into play, opponent takes 5 damage.
K-Army Guy: Into play, all opponent's monsters lose 2 attack.
Mubble: Already has an agreed on ability, I'd suggest just nerfing the ones produced by Mubble Woods.

Fine with all of these. The mubble thing's a bit weird, but whatever.

RE: 1mana monsters - sXeAndriex - 10-31-2006 08:38 PM

Dorii Wrote:Gremlin: Wow, that's a great idea!

Don't know why, but things like this always sound sarcastic to me.

Blue_Elite Wrote:...would you still put a regular Mubble in your deck seeing as how it's a one-time use?

No, I would not.

Blue_Elite Wrote:K-Guy: Point taken about dark monsters and life gain. +2 life sounds fine.

I agree.

As for the Gremlin, I'm fine with it as it exists now, or with this proposed change. Color me ambivalent.

Looking back at Tamdriks Skyrian suggestions, I really love the immunity one. It just seems so neat and chock fulla flavor.

And finally, going back to Kelar Citizen- Personally, I think it's current ability is useless, as well as a waste as it is the perfect oppertunity for racial synergy. However, I'm kind of at a lack of ideas here. Apparently there's no way to get concensus on anything involving keywords from future sets (despite Webrunner using lifebar on a clash card >.>) and the current suggestions (g mana on destruction and +10 temp life) seem weak as well. I'd really like to hear any opinions or ideas others may have.

RE: 1mana monsters - Blue_Elite - 10-31-2006 11:16 PM

I wouldn't doubt if masa was being sarcastic. I've mentioned that same ability for Gremlin about 3 times now; it's pretty much a joke at this point.

Generally you want something that's spell/ability immune to be able to take advantage of those conditions. Immunity on Skyrian seems like a nerf as generally your opponent isn't going to waste spells on it and save it's abilities for just about anything more threatening. I guess you could argue that spell/ability immune Skyrian + Shadowforce Heart would be a good combo.