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Mind burrower discussion - Printable Version

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Mind burrower discussion - kaddar - 03-21-2005 09:46 PM

Zaen has been posting how he wants mind burrower changed in some ways, since it has been unbalanced since conviction first came out, even with cost increases.

I think we all can agree mind burrower + undizzy spell is very similar to playing both end disk 2 + playing a new creature, except that it has ways of being counter by dizzing, laser, etc... What we will disagree on in this thread is whether or not this means we should balance him, whether or not he is unbalanced enough. And what balances we should decide on.

We all also probably agree that speed system has fixed many mind burrower problems. Since the speed system came out, he is not nearly as overpowered as he once was. Is this enough though? I do not know either way.

Here is one of his ideas, I am not 100% sure this is the one you wanted to discuss, so if it isn't zaen, let me know and I will fix it.

Quote:I'd still say the mind burrower needs: Add a counter to mind burrower at end of turn. Ability: Remove a counter and dizzy, take control, etc. That is, disable the burrower/undizzy that everyone, without exception, hates. This might also be a nice boost to honor burrower. (Why add dizzying to the ability anyway?)
-His suggestion.

The old mind burrower had no undizzy spells, cost less, had more health for a time. Importantly, the old one could still be undizzied by creatures.

Personally I think the best way to fix the mind burrower would be to prevent you from undizzying it with spells, but not creatures, since I think that it is still somewhat skillful to use a creature undizzier to unleash mind burrower. I don't know how we'd do this, since there is no such thing as (Local Spell Immunity) or anything like that.

So on to possible solutions using his idea: There are no such things as counters on creatures in cmc, so to do this, we would have to make it so mind burrower comes out first as a different creature with ability "Draw phase: Gains >D Destroy mind burrower, take control of target creature". This would work the same way chaos generals work. We may need to, after doing this, boost mind burrower's strength or reduce his cost. Also, this changes the flavor from the original mind burrower, as this would not allow creature undizzings to occur anymore.

We could, of course go the abrasis route of crippling any creature he steals, basically making him a 2 card costing end disk 2. IE: Stolen creature is dizzied and doesn't undizzy next turn, stolen creature loses half life and attack, but to me, this changes the flavor of the card and I frown upon it.

RE: Mind burrower discussion - alphamai1300 - 03-21-2005 10:15 PM

Rawr! Don't change my-er....the Mind Burrower!
* alphamai1300 hugs his Mind Burrower protectively.

It being E speed makes it need undizzy spells so as to survive the turn it's played. I just like to think of it as a nine-cost speed summon. I don't know how many of my games have hinged on that nine mana, epecially since it was originally eight.

First solution: I gawk, because, for that brief moment, Burrower isn't a burrower.

Second Solution: Again, defeats the purpose of stealing a creature.

I have no suggestions to balancing something I see as a specialized card.

RE: Mind burrower discussion - Tamdrik - 03-21-2005 11:20 PM

If we really want to go nuts, we could do something like "If Mind Burrower is targeted by a spell, destroy it." Might want to make it cheaper or something, then, though. Alternatively, we could just give it 10 life, so it's more vulnerable to things, and can't be Ordered around.

RE: Mind burrower discussion - Zaen - 03-21-2005 11:36 PM

The solution I most like is, Instead of mind burrower, change the card to mind burrower larva, with ability "Begin turn: Mind Burrower Larva becomes a Mind Burrower, with ability ....". I think it just looks better.

alphamail, maybe we see it differently because we were around since before there were undizzy spells, and we know it's won't make it useless.

You see, the way it works without undizzying is that you have to keep the burrower alive for a turn. This is not impossible. in fact it's easier now than then. For example, the oponent will try to attack the burrower. You play a FMV on the attacker and your burrower lives. You just need a little bit more finesse when it comes to burrowing.

What it does give is a chance for the oponent to take appropriate actions. E.g., gather mana for a laser, or sac the really big creature he has.

It's not a total nerf. In fact I just think it's an undoing of a rather large boost.

RE: RE: Mind burrower discussion - Zaen - 03-21-2005 11:41 PM

Tamdrik Wrote:If we really want to go nuts, we could do something like "If Mind Burrower is targeted by a spell, destroy it." Might want to make it cheaper or something, then, though.

I'd love that, personally, but people won't go for it :) I'd also favor changes that need no coding other than changing the csc files, so it can go on the next set of changes.

The larva change seems appropriate and not excessive, and can aparently be done in the csc

RE: Mind burrower discussion - alphamai1300 - 03-22-2005 12:16 AM

With undizzier spells now available (and yes, you were right, me joining after Clash), Mind Burrower has becomes more of a spell than a creature, no? That's what I want to see it as--a nine-cost spell. It's stats are hardly worth what it costs, so it makes up for its ability. Lawyers, MMW and ED2 all cost just about the same, though, admittedly, it doesn't have caster gaining a creature.
Having it cost more just seems impractical. I will, though begrudgingly, see viability in it as a two-stage creature.

RE: Mind burrower discussion - Lauritz Melchior - 03-22-2005 01:22 AM

One thing: you could make Mind Burrower spell immune. So, it can't be lasered or t-mancied or anything, but it also can't be undizzied by spells. This gives you opponent a chance to kill it with any creature that has 30 or more attack. However, an FMV could take care of whatever creature attacked it. It would still give the opponent a chance to sac large creatures, use abilities, and attack.

RE: RE: Mind burrower discussion - kaddar - 03-22-2005 03:14 AM

Honestly I'd love to see the mind burrower split into two cards, using the honor burrower, but perhaps changing the cardname. (The honor burrower is rarely if ever used.)

One:
First out: 0/48 7D/0D No ability mind burrower, draw phase it gains the ability it normally has, but at C speed., cheaper to play
Two:
Current mind burrower


And just see how people deal with the new one.


Unfortunately we are not supposed to change cards like that. Too bad too, it'd be neat.

RE: Mind burrower discussion - sqweek - 03-22-2005 08:29 AM

Zaen Wrote:alphamail [sic], maybe we see it differently because we were around since before there were undizzy spells, and we know it's won't make it useless.
Mind you, they were 0/55 and therefore outside thundermancy/sniping range back in Prime no?

RE: Mind burrower discussion - moonfish - 03-22-2005 10:53 AM

I think the best solution is the larva-like one, only then without naming the card a larva.
So in addition to the current text, something like "Draw phase: Mind Burrower gains X" where X is its current ability.

That would have to go with either a life boost or a cost decrease though, as it takes all of the burrower's current power. The 'new' burrower would definately not be [Image: dmana.gif]7 worthy.

It'd still be quite strong in combination with FMV, but that would at least give the opponent the chance to sac whatever is too strong to risk being stolen.

My main choice to an additional change with the 'larva' idea is to decrease the cost to [Image: dmana.gif]5.

RE: RE: Mind burrower discussion - Zaen - 03-22-2005 11:52 AM

sqweek Wrote:
Zaen Wrote:alphamail [sic], maybe we see it differently because we were around since before there were undizzy spells, and we know it's won't make it useless.
Mind you, they were 0/55 and therefore outside thundermancy/sniping range back in Prime no?

I can't quite recall the exact stats, it was bigger and had like 7 attack or so, I think. But it got changed after all the complaints.

It was still worth 7, IIRC. Even after the life decrease. I think the burrower you see now is unchanged since before clash, but I'll let the change historians fill you in on the definite changes made over time.

RE: Mind burrower discussion - sqweek - 03-22-2005 02:20 PM

Zaen Wrote:the change historians
That would be me? Icon_razz
It has had it's casting cost increased ([Image: dmana.gif]6->[Image: dmana.gif]7) since clash came out.
I'm not sure when it got it's cost/life decrease though (used to be [Image: dmana.gif]7 for 0/56) as it was before I started tracking changes. I had a feeling it was part of the updates that came with the server crash (which was after clash), but I could be quite mistaken.

Anyway, now that you can't clickwar to prevent any counters I can't say I really have an issue with Mind Burrower. It's fairly situational - consider if you take an undizzier, that's two cards you're using to in the best case (your oppenent has one monster clearly tougher than the rest) destroy more than two (1 steal, multiple kills) of your opponent's cards. OK, this is good, card advantage and probably mana advantage. But this is best case.
If your opponent has equal monsters out, then you can capture one and suicide it for equal card trade (undizzy+burrower vs 2 creatures). You'd likely get a little mana advantage out of it but you haven't gained that much.
Alternately, if your opponent has any kind of spell in hand (fmv, laser, lawyers, cannabalize, fire the main cannon just to name a few) you'll be spending two cards and your strategy will be countered by one. Probably a horrific loss for you considering they've got a monster out which you wanted to burrow. Loss of card advantage, the mana balance is up in the air with the wide range of counters available.
Also, there's many cards that you can play to prevent your opponent from ever bothering to play a Burrower. Skeletal Warlock, SWIMSUIT!!!, Cane of Kaayn'Di, きゅーきょくやいば, むげんだいやいば, Galgarion, Argent, Lumi [inf], Ardam [inf], Shadehawk, Goblin... Alright, a lot of them are more expensive than the Burrower, but they're there. If you allow multiple cards then pretty much any two snipers (or sniper + foom) will achieve the same lockdown.

Sure, there'll be times when your opponent burrows your Galgarion and trounces the rest of your field with it, but that's the risk you take when you've got no backup in hand and attack instead of leaving him undizzy to use his ability. But just because it has potential to be good doesn't make it overpowered IMO - I can see plenty of situations where it's not effective.

(note that I didn't examine the use of Burrowers as a lock - I'm only considering Burrower+Undizzy here)

RE: Mind burrower discussion - kaddar - 03-22-2005 03:27 PM

yes, it is indeed clear that mind burrower is a lot more balanced now that the speed system allows a form of countering abilities.

It is entirely possible it does not even need balance changes as much as it used to. Note that most players who play big creatures no longer have the mana to counter mind burrower, certainly if you play a Khrima, you will no longer be able to afford laser, that is one problem with the "there are lots of counters" point being made. Of course, a person who plays khrima may have mana for lawyers.

Here is the balance that satisfies the mind burrower fairness idea.

Mind Burrower
(Spell Immune)
> Lose Spell Immunity, Mind burrower becomes a 0/30 creature with ">D Destroy mind burrower, take control of target creature"

This allows:
-Creatures to undizzy burrower
-Burrower can be countered by spell (when it loses spell immunity)
-Burrower can be used on the turn after it was played

This idea is fairly simple, and I feel elegant compared to, say, ooze. It may be more complex than previous recommendations, but I feel that being a 0/30 before it uses it's ability, and being undizzable by creatures are two very important parts of the burrower. I could be biased because I use it with Knell'Dorn a lot though. It doesn't underpower the burrower too much, as the opponet's creatures can still be dizzied, so I invision mind burrower decks using more dizzy spells than undizzy spells after this point. Burrower's stats after this change would obviously need to be changed to the 0/56 or 0/45 range.

RE: Mind burrower discussion - Tamdrik - 03-22-2005 03:39 PM

I don't know about saying that it's simple and elegant right before you say it's more complex than other suggestions, but it does seem like a reasonable solution, aside from the slight oddness of 'larval' damage not affecting the life of the 'active' burrower. But then I'm not opposed to just making it have 10 life and be done with it. :)

RE: Mind burrower discussion - alphamai1300 - 03-22-2005 03:50 PM

So, in otherwords, you'd rather me replace all my Orders with Zips or Convictions? If anything, that helps, since that means I don't have to wait to generate 9[Image: dmana.gif] and just use splash. Heh, it's agood thing, also that FMV and Blur are splash as well.

The way Kaddar set it up makes it as close to Prime as possible, oddly, since it is as if there were no undizzier spells. I don't see why it has to have its life reset to 30 when it changes though. If you plan to give it more life, give it more life--don't just make it vulnerable on the happenstance its ability can actually be used. Doesn't really help if the larva takes a hit that makes it have less than 30 life, and then gains a bit just to emphasize that is is Laser-able or T-mancy-able.

Also you didn't insert speeds. I'd guess the larva would be a non-dizzy S speed, and the burrower still has E speed? Heck, bump it up to D speed.

I still do not approve of any change!

RE: Mind burrower discussion - Tamdrik - 03-22-2005 04:37 PM

Yes, by all means, if the life is reduced to 10, replace your Orders with Zips/Convictions. I don't consider it a drastic change, nor do I think one is necessary. But it's one more reason to play Foombolt, and allows a sniper to actually keep a Burrower at bay.

RE: Mind burrower discussion - Xypherous-Oxide - 03-22-2005 04:46 PM

You liken Burrower to a 9D creature kill spell with counters, alpha. There is a fundamental flaw in that.

The gain of the burrower is an End Disc 2 spell (Obliterate) and the cost of whatever creature you've stolen. If an undizzier is used, you have lost no cards, as you've gained a kill spell, and a creature spell.

An ED2 alone is 10D.
So your gain so far, is 1D, and the cost of a creature.

On the other hand, almost every single counter is either heavy blaster (except goblin) or heavy Lock (except candy cane, which in itself, is kind of debatable, i mean, who the hell would play a burrower while cane is still out?). Thundermancy and Laser are the only two insta-spell cards that let you have an advantage mana-wise over the other person.

Suffice to say, Burrower + Undizzy was so bad before the speed system, that I literally just surrendered every time I saw it. There's was really no point in playing for me after that. If they wanted the win that badly, they could have it in those days.

RE: RE: Mind burrower discussion - Tamdrik - 03-22-2005 05:19 PM

sqweek Wrote:Also, there's many cards that you can play to prevent your opponent from ever bothering to play a Burrower. [...], きゅーきょくやいば, むげんだいやいば, [...]
Does that text look fine to everyone else? To me it looks like sqweek came up with a card owned only by Cthulhu, whose name cannot be pronounced with human tongues, and to see it played means insanity to mortal minds. Granted, I could see how that would prevent Burrowers being played.

Of course, it could just be some alphabet that I don't recognize, and/or some quirky text decoding/rendering in Linux/Firefox, but I like the Lovecraftian explanation better.

RE: Mind burrower discussion - Xypherous-Oxide - 03-22-2005 05:25 PM

It's in Japanese Hiragana and it reads as follows..

Kyuu-kyooku yaiba
Mugendai yaiba

though the Cthulu card would be nice.

Summon Cthulu
25D
0D
Summon Lovecraftian horror
When Cthulu comes into play, destroy all creatures with a mind, including the players.

*/*

RE: RE: Mind burrower discussion - azulknight - 03-22-2005 09:31 PM

alphamai1300 Wrote:Rawr! Don't change my-er....the Mind Burrower!
* alphamai1300 hugs his Mind Burrower protectively.

It being E speed makes it need undizzy spells so as to survive the turn it's played. I just like to think of it as a nine-cost speed summon. I don't know how many of my games have hinged on that nine mana, epecially since it was originally eight.

I share alphamai's sentiment. Mind Burrowers aren't that bad, though if people use them frequently, it is terribly annoying. I'd like to hear why we don't just have a restriction list... It is more fluid of a card than its counters, though.

Other options, not all good:
Add "Opponent requires X creatures".
Add "When Mind Burrower comes into play, opponent gains 5D5L5G"
Add "[Image: abilitydizzy.gif]: Mind Burrower loses this ability and gains ability "Destroy Mind Burrower...""
Increase its cost to 8D or 9D.
Increase clash undizzier costs by 1 mana.
Add "When Mind Burrower comes into play, it deals 100 damage to you".
Supplement the above with Mind Burrower obliterating itself.

I really don't want to change it, myself. And personally, I prefer using dizzier spells to protect it.