Balance Thread

Precisely.
In Magic this problem is solved by having all facedowns cost the same amount, thus your opponent knows how much you spent but not what it is; obviously CMC needn't follow this exactly, but the principles remain.

Laser Surgeon: EIGHT?!?  It's not that much better than a standard healer...  frankly, at that cost/stats, I'd almost remove an activation cost entirely.  Almost.  Maybe 1-2.  I do agree that it doesn't need that much sac.  4/3 is fine.

Sword Dancer is significantly worse than War Spybot (Light) in every respect (cost/attack/life) except the face-down thing.  As others have pointed out, that mechanic is of questionable utility.

Construction Kit is nice.  Draw two creatures for slightly more than a ToK?  Sign me up!  That said, I don't know that it necessarily needs to be nerfed yet.  However, it stands in stark contrast to Arms Locker and Energy Surplus, which are comparatively useless.  They should probably be Draw a Card, Allying 2: Draw another card, with a cost of 2/1.

With the Power 1 requirement, I think Missile Pod could stand to be 10 damage.

The Armormail is just goofy.  But compared to War NPC (Light), he's actually pretty weak, though his flanking ability is kind of useful.  Overall, I think he could stand to be a little cheaper, like 6/4.

Yup, the either-or generators are still weak...

Er... is Radioactive Battery + Armormail as insane as it sounds?  Come to think of it, Armormail + BoS has a similar issue.  Radioactive Battery + Charmshielder could be pretty potent, too.

EDIT: Never mind, looks like Armormail was changed since this morning. It's still (even more so) too expensive, though.

I kinda think the either-or mana should cost 3/3, produce 2 of their main and have a dizzying conversion of 2 to 2. Maybe not, though. I do know that the Allying ones outclass them.

Tamdrik Wrote:Sword Dancer is significantly worse than War Spybot (Light) in every respect (cost/attack/life) except the face-down thing. As others have pointed out, that mechanic is of questionable utility.

And it's non-uniqueness.

Blue_Elite Wrote:Scanning Field: Too strong in shotgun decks (no current suggestions)

Suggestion: Only works on monsters with no activated abilities.

Tamdrik Wrote:Wow, Slimeborg sucks. Let's say, perfect conditions, you have 5 generators and you spend 77 on his ability-- now he's a whopping 37/45 creature that cost you 20 mana. I'd suggest something like gaining attack equal to 3x # of generators you control, and boosting his initial stats to 30/45 or thereabouts.

At 30/45 he'd be one of the better cards for his cost without taking his ability into concideration. I agree that he's too weak as is... maybe make his ability 2x and let him start out with 20/45? Then he's pretty much even with Chook Xao, except he doesn't dizzy, costs mana, and can only target himself.

Tamdrik Wrote:Space Leech is only generally useful against Radd-lifers, and then not against Wizard, who draws the most complaints.

Is there was way to let it ignore [ability immune]?

CK-66 Ninjitsu is insanely powerful. Compare to the Invisible Horror From Beyond Space and Tsukeawase.

99

IHFBS
(Inviso attack)
(Entrenching)
(Facedown)
57/1

47
57
CK-66
(Inviso attack)
(Entrenching)
(Facedown)
55/55

11
11
Tsukeawase
unique
(Inviso attack)
(Entrenching)
55/56

Conclusion: CK-66 needs a nerf, preferably in attack, or IHFBS needs a boost.

Also, Allying gens should have Allying 4, they're too good. And no, this isn't just in comparison to the either-ors.

Xagar Wrote:Conclusion: CK-66 needs a nerf, preferably in attack, or IHFBS needs a boost.

preferably both

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:Sword Dancer is significantly worse than War Spybot (Light) in every respect (cost/attack/life) except the face-down thing.  As others have pointed out, that mechanic is of questionable utility.

And it's non-uniqueness.

I hardly think that alone makes him worthwhile, particularly since he's not really the kind of creature you'd tend to play a lot of, anyway.

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:Wow, Slimeborg sucks... 

At 30/45 he'd be one of the better cards for his cost without taking his ability into concideration. I agree that he's too weak as is... maybe make his ability 2x and let him start out with 20/45? Then he's pretty much even with Chook Xao, except he doesn't dizzy, costs mana, and can only target himself.

Aside from the inherent problem of using Chook Xao as a standard, 30/45 doesn't exactly favorably compare with Skeletal Bird, Scrap Heap, or Mechahawk, which are the creatures in his cost class.

Also, I agree about nerfing CK-66/boosting IHFBS.  Not sure about the allying gens yet-- need to play with them.

The double-power either-or mana at 3/3 is a lot better than the current incarnation (assuming no into-play effects).  I'm not convinced that simply dropping the negative into-play effect wouldn't be enough to fix them, though.

Tamdrik Wrote:I hardly think that alone makes him worthwhile, particularly since he's not really the kind of creature you'd tend to play a lot of, anyway.

Wasn't making a point against a balance, I was just trying to be helpful and add something you forgot to mention.

Tamdrik Wrote:

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:Wow, Slimeborg sucks...

At 30/45 he'd be one of the better cards for his cost without taking his ability into concideration. I agree that he's too weak as is... maybe make his ability 2x and let him start out with 20/45? Then he's pretty much even with Chook Xao, except he doesn't dizzy, costs mana, and can only target himself.

Aside from the inherent problem of using Chook Xao as a standard, 30/45 doesn't exactly favorably compare with Skeletal Bird, Scrap Heap, or Mechahawk, which are the creatures in his cost class.

You're comparing three beatsticks to a completly different type of monster. Chook Xao may not be the perfect choice, I'll readily admit, but it's closer in concept than any of those.

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:Wow, Slimeborg sucks...

At 30/45 he'd be one of the better cards for his cost without taking his ability into concideration. I agree that he's too weak as is... maybe make his ability 2x and let him start out with 20/45? Then he's pretty much even with Chook Xao, except he doesn't dizzy, costs mana, and can only target himself.

Aside from the inherent problem of using Chook Xao as a standard, 30/45 doesn't exactly favorably compare with Skeletal Bird, Scrap Heap, or Mechahawk, which are the creatures in his cost class.

You're comparing three beatsticks to a completly different type of monster. Chook Xao may not be the perfect choice, I'll readily admit, but it's closer in concept than any of those.

You said 30/45 would be one of the better cards for his cost "without taking his ability into consideration".  That's a vanilla beatstick.  So I compared it to some vanilla beatsticks.  So 30/45 would be at a 15-20 point stat disadvantage to a same-cost vanilla beatstick.  So that's what the cost of his ability would be, which I think is fair.  So, assuming a full field of generators, he'd be a 45/45 for 4/4 mana, a 60/45 for 5/5 mana, a 75/45 for 6/6 mana, etc., which all seem somewhat more expensive than they'd normally be, which I consider an acceptable tradeoff for flexibility.

1 notable advantage Sword Dancer has over Light WotW Spybot: Face down = entrenching, he get's the first attack and your opponent won't know it's him until he does attack (affects strategy).

Gunner Turret: Changes to S speed when targeting own monsters and becomes D speed when targeting enemy. If not possible, 5-6 damage at S speed. Removes tediousness of constantly resolving.

Tamdrik Wrote:You said 30/45 would be one of the better cards for his cost "without taking his ability into consideration". That's a vanilla beatstick. So I compared it to some vanilla beatsticks.

Ahh, that explains it. I should have stated that more clearly. What I ment was without taking his specific ability into concideration, not acting as if he were an abilityless creature.
Just incase I'm not explaining myself clearly this time as well: 30/30, 3/30, 40/30, 10/35, 15/35, 40/25, 25/40, ect. would be examples of stats for a 5 mana creature with an ability. That is ignoring what that ability specifically is. What I was trying to say was that 30/45 would be on the high end of similar cost creatures with abilities, such as Bile Slime at 35/30 or ZFF-09 Hawk at 35/39.
Sorry for the confusion there.

Now, something that I don't believe has been brought up yet:
Interference Generator might need a nerf, but definitely needs to be unique. I've recently been fiddling around with a control deck and I've managed a perfect lock in about 65% of my games, same as early as turn 4.

Blue_Elite Wrote:1 notable advantage Sword Dancer has over Light WotW Spybot: Face down = entrenching, he get's the first attack and your opponent won't know it's him until he does attack (affects strategy).

Yes, I just saw that now in the rules summary-- that is a considerable advantage for this type of creature, so maybe it doesn't need boosting after all. It might still be a little weak, but not so conspicuously so.

Interference Generator is hella lame. It's a permalock if they have an empty hand for 22. It even has Speed Summon.

Ok, here's what I think needs to be done about the generators.  The allying ones are too strong, and the either-or ones are too weak, so I propose that the play costs be reversed.  That is, the allying generators should cost 2 mana to put into play, while the either-or generators cost one.

This is why I want to increase the cost on the allying gens instead of just making them Allying 4 or something: Currently, even if the allying generators had no ability at all, they'd still be useful in certain circumstances (i.e. I can play generators with splash mana).  If they had allying, but no bonus effect attached, they'd be very good, as they make cheap and easy contributors to creatures' allying effects.  As they stand, the allying generators are just over the top.

I haven't actually tested out MC yet, so I could be wrong about how this works but...

If I play two Financium Ores (cost gen ) and a Glowerite Ore (cost gen ), then the allying would kick in and they'd generate a total of 33:, entirely possible to turn 2? Or due to the color mix you could even get three down on the first turn to generate 6 mana? If so then hit them with nerfralagama₄ now!

But even if they don't, yeah, mixing them with normal gens would ridiculously accelerate the early game, I mean you could play three generators of a single color (including one basic gen) on turn one. Aside from it completely changing the game by making early turns much more deadly, it much further widen the gap between a good opening and a mana screw - rather than how it currently is where you can often recover from a mana screw at the beginning.

I'd recommend that they cost a minimum of X1Y1, before even considering the allying bonus generation (as they power other allying cards). With the bonus generation, I'd say X1Y1Z1 or X2Y1.

In fact, that 'limited' or 'restricted' (or whatever the CMC:GG term is) would also be nice, it could go on these gens (and other cards) just to stop you from easily hitting the allying threshold on turn 2 or 3.

The either/or ones costing one mana would probably be fine too with the into play penalties as they are. They'd probably want a corresponding sac reduction too.

If you played one of each ore on turn 1, yes, you could activate them all on turn 2. Most of the time you'll be playing two gens, so you have to wait til turn 3. But this makes it so that common mana totals on turn 3 are something like 634, with three generators out.

Haha, that's just plain silly

<hr>

Interference Generator would be great even without speed summon, if it was unique, had no sac, and required/costed three counters per shot, I reckon. Forcing a discard is powerful, being reuseable is really powerful, but denying the opponent even the slightest chance to ever use it? Crazy powerful.

CK-99 Samurai is godawesomely powerful. Assuming that you don't use Allying entities with it (because you wouldn't really), then even with a full field he's a 30/50 Face Down robot, which in itself is probably worth the cost (Re: skelebird 45/45). Seeing him as a 50/50 or stronger would probably be a very common occurence. I'd probably also change the text to Allying 5: Fleeting.

Chrome Dragon: Holy mother of spoon,

x5 =100/90 dragon for the equivalent of about half the price you'd normally pay (Re: DLK Prime). Or splash it with Bettery Relics, even.

Teh Mechazors


Allright, let's compare the mechazors...

First, similaritys:

1.All of them cost 54
2.All of them have the type "zor".


Now, analysis...

Mechazor ONE
25/35 stats for 9 mana aint pretty. Uniqueness doesnt help either...but...he's the key component in any dedicated mechazor deck, since without him, you cant merge the pieces. The carddraw part as he comes into play supports the fact that you should play him early,in order to have him undizzy and be able to play the others, and merge them on the same turn while they're still dizzy.

BUT...he's still very very weak. At least give him a chance to survive...on a balancing standpoint, he'll be difficult to protect(well, there's hyperspace that effectively gives him entrenching, but he can still be sniped and such. at least give him 45 life, or more. Speedsummon would be an interesting alternative.)


Mechazor TWO

So, this guy got 30/29 base stats(even worse than mechazor one) and a pretty strong support ability. +20 attack for all zors is nice, but...they're intended to be merged, and even if it boost itself, 50/29 for 9 mana still sucks.

He's weak...if it werent for the merging thing, you wouldn't play him.

Mechazor THREE
NOW we get a good one.

Ok, we have crappy stats(34/21), but we're not playing it for its stats.
Not even for the fact that its required for merging, that's just a nice benefit.

The real reason you play this beauty is it's ability.

3Destroy target creature. It's rembrant on crack.
Allying 4 is a easy requirement.
The fact that it's a robot makes it easier to search out via construction kit, and makes this mechazor VERY playable, even and especially outside dedicated mechazor decks.



Mechazor FOUR
Ok, we got the best stat-thingy here. 35/40 still isnt impressive, though...his ability is actually useful as support, compared to TWO's, since he can help his allies stay alive. Still, he's weak..just not as weak as the rest of them(with the exception of three, which is not weak, but awesome).


Mechazor FIVE
Ok, brace yourselves. Brace yourselves for the sucktitude possible you can get for 9 mana.

Here comes...

a 10/30 creature with second life(allying 4, as all zors)!
Cmon, even drecker has better stats, and with 9 mana base cost, no sac gain whatsoever, you wouldnt want to play him in the first place, not even thinking about REPLAYING him.

Alas, he's required for teh big robot named...

Mechazor L
Ok, you get this if you play all five mechazors and merge them with ONE's ability. Total investment of five cards(four, actually, since you get mechazor five back due his second life, although he sucks so much that you couldn't care less), 2520, probably more to protect the pieces.

The reward for all your efforts...

2520
Mechazor L
Call unique giant robot
(Spellimmune)
(Ability immune)
150/150

Aaand ability: :starAdd 1 to counter; or if counter=5 reset counter, win the game.

So you get a spellimmune maxima termis for 15 mana less, 4 cards more, and he's got an ability that lets you auto-win in five turns...if you use the ability every turn, keeping the 150/150 dizzy and USELESS.

Oh, did I mention that he comes into play dizzy too?

Seriously, as much fun a mechazor deck is, PLEASE boost the zors.

Otherwise, they will never, EVER be able to compare to The unspoken or even Aeon weapon as alternate win condition.