Balance Thread

I'd like to bring up a couple cards that suck. Bad.

Namely, Cosmic Rift, the 1 mana, 1 power effects, and the Generate 1 of a color, dizzy to give the other type effects. Now, all the last effects have problems built in- lose life, opponent gains life, you discard, they draw, whatever. But dizzying to switch one mana to another warrants THAT? Nope. Not in my book, at least. If you wanted another color, you could either 1) Use gens of that color, or 2) Use the allyings to give both colors. I don't know what we could do regarding them, but they seem they could really use some help.

Cosmic Rift costs 83, for a 40% chance to skip your next, 20% that the opponent does. WHY?! If it was a 50/50 that one of you skipped your next turns, sure. But as it is, you're paying a large chunk of mana to screw yourself.

Lastly, the 4/4 attachments. They suck, too. Generating one mana of one color, and giving one power. It'd be four turns to pay the mana back of ONE color, and the other is gone. Not to mention that creatures die quickly, as a rule. Oh, sure, you might get a couple of mana bonus by using it on an entrencher, but you'd waste a monster slot. I suggest making it 2/2, or something. Maybe 3/3 and generate one of each color.


I inhale vigorously at balancing, but these cards are just plain pathetic...

~Shadow~ Wrote:Lastly, the 4/4 attachments. They suck, too. Generating one mana of one color, and giving one power. It'd be four turns to pay the mana back of ONE color, and the other is gone. Not to mention that creatures die quickly, as a rule. Oh, sure, you might get a couple of mana bonus by using it on an entrencher, but you'd waste a monster slot. I suggest making it 2/2, or something. Maybe 3/3 and generate one of each color.

Attachments can be placed on any entity, not just creatures.

42/50 with 3/3 sac on Mechahawk sounds good to me.

<hr>

And I'd make Target the Engines hit any generator as if the opponent isn't playing the prime, clash or prince generators then it's a truly deadweight card (you can't even cycle it as there's no target to cycle). Anything else aside, it's an Expansion hoser, which in my eyes just seems very wrong (as it's hosing a different expansion to the one that it's in).

<hr>

I'm also for lowering Sword Dancer's cost to 3/3. Not sure about whether sac needs to go down by 1 or 1/1 or not at all though.

arrggghhhhh this is ridiculous, I'm sorry I will just post once to rebut that comment, and them I'm leaving this thread alone permanently, praying that webby doesn't cave in to any more player pressure and just goes on his own impulse, which is much better than the way that the game is made atm.

the new generators are REALLY good, good in the same way that elemental artifact is essentially strictly better than messengite shrine or battery relic is strictly better than dark obelisk (although this one is closer, and more deck dependant). How many times have you played a game where you have almost enough splash mana to play your super powerful splash card, but couldn't, or you wanted to play a beatstick, but couldn't have enough mana to hold back a counterspell for your opponent's fury of heaven, the list goes on.... the only one of these that seems potentially underpowered (though I'm still not sure, is the one that lets your opponent draw)

Haha, webrunner has by his own admission made the cards 'without giving anythoughts towards balance'. They're not balanced because he didn't try to balance them. And frankly, there's that many new mechanics that it'd be impossible for one person to do so.

Snoopy, if you actually looked at all the cards you'd realise how stupidly unbalanced the cards are at the moment. And it was much worse to start with. For example, one card for 33 let you win the game instantly when you played it.

Oh, and we're boosting underpowered cards too btw.

<hr>

For an actual balance consideration, the (Power 1 or dizzy if you attack) monsters seem far too powerful for such a trivial requirement, although I've not actually seen them played... thoughts?

Well, keep in mind for those power requiring monsters that you do have to add cards specifically to use them- too few and you'll never draw one, too many and you'll have a lot of junk sitting around. It's a hard choice to make. The RNG's likely to either give you no power cards, or fifty of 'em.

masamunemaniac Wrote:For an actual balance consideration, the (Power 1 or dizzy if you attack) monsters seem far too powerful for such a trivial requirement, although I've not actually seen them played... thoughts?

Don't balance them till you play them. That probably sounds snarky, it's not ment to be. The thing is power is... odd. When I first looked at it, the concept seemed alot different than it was when I tried to make a deck using it.
Hell, I'm not willing to really take a guess at what to do there till I make a new 'power' deck (When I did, certain cards wern't working.)

I was just drawing some attention to them s'opposed to actually trying to nerf them. I'll only try and balance cards prior to playing them if they appear obviously broken at first glance (visibly much better than a comparable card, or otherwise comboriffic).

Only Stellar Pack attaches to creature only. Why?!?

Normally, Gunner Turret can't target creatures that don't dizzy, like Wormhole Striker. However, I have found that stacking two triggers to shoot at Wormhole Striker (or another creature and then Wormhole Striker) will succeed in shooting and then "dizzying" Wormhole Striker, which keeps the counter at 1 and the Wormhole Striker undizzy. I'm guessing the idea was not actually to make a effect that requires one never undizzying creature and one dizzyable creature that can wipe the entire opponent's field of creatures.

EDIT: You can also stack the dizzy, set counter to 1 trigger onto a dizzy creature and it'll work.

Ok, here's an attempt to get some comprehensive balancing going, since what's been happening is that people have been individually identifying a couple of problematic cards at a time, which results in many cards getting neglected.  I'm going to try to comment on every MC card at some point, starting here with the light/gray cards.  Please discuss.

NM-85 Nanomachine
<strike>Might be scary with Radd-lifers, but otherwise almost pointless.</strike>
Suggestion: Times 4 instead of 2, add "and takes one damage"?
(EDIT: Fixed!)

PR-34 Probebot
The ability is pretty minor<strike>, and thus his cost/stats ratio out of whack.</strike>
Suggestion: 12 cost, 21 sac
(EDIT: Fixed!)

Clockwork Paladin
His ability has a pretty high prerequisite.  <strike>Even if we trade the ability for a permanent +20 life and call it even, he'd be too expensive.</strike>
Suggestion: 41 cost, 52 sac
(EDIT: Fixed!)

CK-3 Sword Dancer
<strike>Assuming face-down doesn't confer entrenching, he's too expensive, particularly compared to War Light Spybot.</strike>
Suggestion: 33 cost/sac
(EDIT: Fixed!)

CK-66 Ninjitsu
<strike>More potent than Tsukeawase (facedown, non-unique) for slightly cheaper.
Suggestion: 58 cost, 69 sac</strike>
(EDIT: Fixed!)

CK-99 Samurai
<strike>Even if we assume he tends to hit the board with two other monsters in play, that still makes him a 50/50 on average for the same cost as Mechahawk (which is itself pretty strong).</strike>  His other drawback is trivially managed/avoided.  Facedown-ness is an added bonus.
Suggestion: 43 cost, sac unchanged
(EDIT: Fixed!)

TR-32 Variable
Not sure what happens if you switch to fighter mode after the robot has been targeted by a spell/ability.  Does it fizzle?  If not, then his ability is largely useless.  If so, he's probably pretty tasty.  No balance suggestions at this time. (EDIT: According to webrunner, it should fizzle, so...)
Suggestion: 44 sac

TR-40 Modulo
Impressively useless.  His ability as written would probably be a net loss for you if you decided to use it 95% of the time, and a marginal gain the rest of the time.  His stats are strong... for a one-mana monster.  Weak otherwise.
Suggestion: Change ability to 3x mana cost of effect, lower cost to 11
(EDIT: Other suggestion: Increase speed to A to beat effect D)
(EDIT: Still weak.)
(EDIT: Alternative Suggestion: LG lacks a Power deck super-card, so how about this: change his ability to "mana cost x Power"?  Most abusive scenario I can think of is a bunch of Ultracells and a Golden Idol or somesuch, but that still only gives you a 159-or-so/25 monster for a ton of mana and lots of cards)

MX-5 Stonehammer
At first glance, quite strong, but the power requirement is a significant drawback, with the current crop of power generators. Probably fine as-is.

MX-12 Protectant
Pretty unique card, so it's hard to gauge.  Decoying can be as much of a drawback as an advantage at times.  He's probably a little too expensive, but I'll withhold judgment for now.

MX-42 Armormail
<strike>The Radioactive Battery combo is pure cheese, but otherwise</strike> he's just not that impressive for the cost, which is roughly equivalent to the Vendor NPC, who is Spell/Ability Immune and deals serious damage, although without flanking ability.
Suggestion: 20/10, 64 cost, zero sac
(EDIT: Radioactive battery issue fixed, cost still a little high.)

Mechazors
I haven't played with the Mechazors or seen the merged version, so I'll withhold comment for now.

Chrome Dragon
Let's say you have a full field of War generators (best case scenario). <strike>Then you have a 30/90, no ability, for 5+4 mana.  Yay.</strike> Then you have a... well, depends on the card's order of operations, but <strike>120/90 or 200/90</strike> <strike>240/90 or 450/90</strike> 225/90 or 69/90 creature for <strike>5+4</strike> 6+5 mana.  And that's really not that outlandish an effect setup.  
<strike>Suggestion: That last multiplier can get pretty sick.  Make it 1x (leave others as 2x).</strike>
<strike>(EDIT: Gyaaah...?!?  Of all the cards for me not to draw in roughly 200 booster packs...  Did I do the math wrong?  Misinterpret the card?)</strike>
(EDIT: Fixed?  As long as it's 3x+(3y*3z) anyway.  Could be worded more clearly.  Actually, at a cost of 6/5, it's probably slightly overpriced for a (max) 69/90 monster.)

Mechahawk
<strike>Mildly too strong compared to Skelebird and its ilk, though keeping in mind that it is slightly less readily incorporated into a beatdown deck (the best dark complementary creatures are inferior to the light and gray counterparts).</strike>
Suggestion: 42/50, sac to 43
(EDIT: Fixed!)

Laser Surgeon
The ability isn't all that much better than a standard healer, <strike>yet it costs an insane amount of mana, to the point that the value of the ability is trivial.  And his stats certainly can't support his mana cost.</strike>
Suggestion: Reduce activation cost to 2, fix spelling of "it's" to "its"
(EDIT: Fixed!)

CN-62 Autogun
<strike>Unless you meet the hefty allying requirements, this probably does almost as much harm as good.  And it costs as much as Level 99 Guy.  If you can protect a Holy Banisher, it will do more damage than the autogun will (25/turn vs 49/2 turns) unless you have 7 allies. Also compare to invisible attackers.</strike>  (EDIT: Ability triggers every turn unless allying in place-- can potentially be quite useful in a lockdown situation, possibly too good.  Needs further investigation.)
<strike>Suggestion: 66, 50% chance of turn skip, allying 4</strike>
(EDIT: Nerfed... too expensive now for what it is?  Weird card.)

CN-20 Catapult
Possibly a bit too strong, but as long as you can't easily entrench it with a Hyperspace, I don't know that it needs a nerf just yet.  EDIT: Note that at ~8+ monocolor cost, his expected vanilla stats should be ~70/70.  The question becomes, what is more of a factor, quick hit, or defenselessness?  I could see a minor nerf.

CN-50 Asteroid Cannon
Interesting.  A 100/60 wall for 6 mana would probably cause a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth, but this can attack (sort of) and is face down, yet costs only slightly more.  Yet I think defense-oriented monsters (including walls) have historically tended to be underpowered, so I don't know that this is way off-base.  We'll see if anyone can demonstrate that it's broken.

Nanoreplicator
Nice reference.  I don't know that I would bother with it at that cost, especially if it can't dupe uniques.  If it can, well, that might be more interesting, yet I can see it potentially opening up all kinds of abuse that was supposed to be averted by uniqueness.
Suggestion: 55, no uniques (if it does now)
(EDIT: Fixed, sort of.  Don't know if it's abusable right now, though multiple Nate/George might be annoying.)

Magic Mine
Amusing.  Will have to try it out sometime.  No immediate balance reaction.

Diamond Clockwork
The clockworks all seem horrible to me, since the allying counterparts seem much less onerous to "turn on", and even if they aren't fully powered up, they still produce something.
Suggestion: 50% chance: Generates , Power 2: Generates additional
(EDIT: Fixed, sort of.  Don't know if it is enough or not.  Perhaps.)

Solar Panel
So, currently, Power is pretty costly to produce, but this is possibly the worst Power generator of the bunch.  On the bright side, it won't lose the game for you like the Nuclear Plant might, but you have to use one of a limited set of locations and hope your opponent isn't using any of the wrong set.  Otherwise, well, you have a Power Cell without the benefit of drawing a card.
Suggestion: If location is light: Generates .  Also, if location is not dark: Generates .

EMP Emitter
Need to try this out.  Could be highly useful as a portable counterspell generator if I understand it correctly.  No balance recommendation yet.
(EDIT: Got nerfed pretty hard, but in fairness, a reusable counter is pretty powerful.)

Graviton Sword
Ugh.  Why?  It's actually not all that common for the speed of an entity to become a critical issue.  The effect slot would most likely be better used for a generator or something else.
Suggestion: Into play: Gain 10 life.
(EDIT: Changed, still useless.  Maybe even more so.  New Suggestion: If target entity's speed is E, it is dizzied.  Otherwise, its speed is reduced by two ranks.", cost of 22)

Scanning Field
Someone pointed out that this could get ugly in a shotgun deck.  I tend to agree.  That said, it is fairly costly.  Maybe not costly enough, though.  I need to see if it can be broken, <strike>but my gut reaction is to increase the cost by about 1/1.</strike>
(EDIT: Fixed)

Missilepod
<strike>Given the pretty onerous burden of a Power 1 requirement, I think it can get away with doing a bit more damage, so that it's not just useful against Radd-lifers and the Giant Letter X family.</strike>
Suggestion: 10 damage
(EDIT: Fixed!)

New Power Source
Considering you'd have to play three generators (save something like Crossover) to gain any benefit, probably four after the card cost, I think this is unlikely to be very useful.  Not to mention that the opponent can take advantage of it as well.  For obvious reasons, it can't be reduced to 1/1 cost, but it still could be better.
Suggestion: End of turn: Draw a card.
(EDIT: Oh crap, it was reduced to 1/1 cost.  This could get exciting.)

Cloaking Field
Nifty, yet pricey.  Possibly worth it, though less so if the entrenching effect is removed.  Might be better bang-for-buck to go with more surgical face-down effects, like Hyperspace or the Protectant, when you factor in the lost effect slot.
Suggestion: Assuming entrenching removed, 55 cost.
(EDIT: Fixed!)

Electromagnetic Net
Kind of interesting, but often, the monsters with the most annoying activated abilities don't attack (or only do so after wreaking its havoc on your field).
Suggestion: Also dizzy target monster, fix spelling of "it's" to "its"
(EDIT: Spelling fixed)

Hull Plating
Still need to investigate further, but my gut reaction is that it's about right.  If you can get it out early, it potentially gives you an effective 400 life, assuming it isn't destroyed.  But it also occupies a slot the whole time, which seems like a reasonable tradeoff.  If we get around to boosting the other life gaining spells/effects, then maybe this could be upped to 30% or something.

Quantum Clock
Any time you have reusable turn skipping, it's a bit unsettling.  I can see this scenario: Trading Post + Kelar Scholar + Holy Scholar = Opponent never gets a turn.  It's a pretty major undertaking, though, so maybe the 9/2 cost (EDIT: along with Power 3) is enough to offset the risk.

Glowerite Ore / Financium Ore
I think the jury's still out on whether these guys continue to be too strong even after the nerf... (EDIT: Strong feelings both ways on this one.  My personal feelings: )
Suggestion: Reduce sac to one mana (e.g., the allying-gen color)
(EDIT: Fixed!)

Electric Conduit / Photonic Conduit
...but they're better than these guys.  Actually, the "silver" either-or generators are probably the least painful of the set, but I think they're still too weak.
Suggestion: Change to -3/-0 and 10 life, respectively

Sensor Sweep
A decent little utility card in the MC environment, but might fall into complete disuse when introduced into the mainstream, where it will be pretty common to find decks that don't use the face-down mechanic at all.
Suggestion: Fix spelling of "revealled" to "revealed"
(EDIT: Fixed!)

Construction Kit
Probably balanced following the latest nerf.  3+3 mana isn't cheap, but drawing two creatures is nice.

Recycling
While graveyard cycling can make one uneasy from M:tG's issues with the mechanic, <strike>12/14</strike> 9/10 is a little ridiculous, considering it costs 15 mana to KILL EVERYTHING.  Still, might want a safety valve to prevent any broken weirdness.
Suggestion: Change cost to 46, add "and obliterate the top 4 cards of your deck"
(EDIT: Somewhat cheaper, but IMO not enough.)

Shade Filter
These seem pretty nifty, though I think their utility will be more fully realized when playing more traditional decks with a well-defined primary color.  Better than the old "dance" cards.

Warp Gate
I don't see a lot of use for this, personally, but maybe others' opinions will vary.  I think Infinity Shield is probably more generally useful.
Suggestion: Cost to 22
(EDIT: Fixed!)

Magnetic Wipe
I probably won't use it much, but it seems reasonable.  Comparable to Blur Effect (which I also don't use much, if at all).

Solar Flare
I think the original formulation of discarding 1+1 cards was okay, given the cost (at least I think I remember that once being the effect).  20 damage is obviously weaker<strike>, and if that is going to stay, I'd make it a bit cheaper.</strike>
Suggestion: Cost to 23
(EDIT: Fixed!)

Energy Surplus
If you actually want to put generators on top of your deck, you're probably really hurting for mana, so paying 2+3 for this will be painful, and you most likely won't be able to trigger the allying clause.
Suggestion: Reduce cost to 12
(EDIT: Improved, but still a little weak.)

Exhaust Port Torpedo
Really, really specialized, even in the MC testbed sandbox, and if you don't have a target, you can't cantrip it.
Suggestion: Destroy target effect if it is a weapon (allows cantrip)
(EDIT: Alternate suggestion: dual targeting-- target a player to get cantrip effect, a weapon effect to destroy it)

Zero-G Facility
I could see this being a really useful location in the right deck. That said, it's suitably priced, I think.

Exo-Suit
Useful, probably priced about right.  No suggested changes.  (EDIT: Note, in comparison to EXP in a Can, that this one can't be played as a surprise response to your creature being attacked)
(EDIT: I still think it was fine at 3/2)

Energy Shackles
Ditto.

Radioactive Battery
<strike>As mentioned above, this is ridiculous when comboed with the current incarnation of the Armormail.</strike>  Could also be problematic with the Charmshielder.
Suggestion: =>10% chance to destroy monster instead of 17 damage
(EDIT: Armormail was fixed, so this is less of a problem.)

Plasma Pack
These things seem slightly overpriced, though they're the only way to generate power without taking up a slot.  The tradeoff is that if the 'host' dies, so does this.
Suggestion: Change cost to 3/3 (same for other "Packs")

Shield Belt
Kind of nifty.  I don't know if it's worth the cost or not, though.  My gut reaction is "no", but others may disagree.
Suggestion: 33
(EDIT: Cost reduced to meet me halfway.  Better, but I still think 3/3 is very reasonable.)

Edit: Anything left unquoted from Tamdriks post I believe should remain as is.
Also, just to state my opinion: I really dislike mass balancing.

Tamdrik Wrote:NM-85 Nanomachine
Might be scary with Radd-lifers, but otherwise almost pointless.
Suggestion: Times 4 instead of 2, add "and takes one damage"?

As with any life increase to Radd lifers it would come out to one. Times four sounds good for now, maybe even more than that. We could always use new reasons to play weenies.

Tamdrik Wrote:CK-3 Sword Dancer
Assuming face-down doesn't confer entrenching, he's too expensive, particularly compared to War Light Spybot.
Suggestion: 33 cost/sac

Sounds fine.

Tamdrik Wrote:CK-66 Ninjitsu
More potent than Tsukeawase (facedown, non-unique) for slightly cheaper.
Suggestion: 58 cost, 69 sac

Sounds fine.

Tamdrik Wrote:CK-99 Samurai
Even if we assume he tends to hit the board with two other monsters in play, that still makes him a 50/50 on average for the same cost as Mechahawk (which is itself pretty strong). His other drawback is trivially managed/avoided. Facedown-ness is an added bonus.
Suggestion: 43 cost, sac unchanged

The allying draw back is much more dangerous than you're giving it credit. However, I still say it's too strong. I'd go as far as 44

Tamdrik Wrote:TR-32 Variable
Not sure what happens if you switch to fighter mode after the robot has been targeted by a spell/ability. Does it fizzle? If not, then his ability is largely useless. If so, he's probably pretty tasty. No balance suggestions at this time.

Variable becomes (spell immune)(ability immune)(quick hit) and... I want to say 13/35. I know it's 35 life and attack in the lower teens.

Tamdrik Wrote:TR-40 Modulo
Impressively useless. His ability as written would probably be a net loss for you if you decided to use it 95% of the time, and a marginal gain the rest of the time. His stats are strong... for a one-mana monster. Weak otherwise.
Suggestion: Change ability to 3x mana cost of effect, lower cost to 11

I agree Modulo is pretty junky as is, but I think your suggestion is overboard concidering Bakuga decks are one of the strongest and most popular archtypes around. At 3x a swimsuit would give it 27 more attack, but at the cost of 9 mana I think that's about fair. I'd say... go with the 3x change and drop the cost/sac by 11 each.

Tamdrik Wrote:Chrome Dragon
Let's say you have a full field of War generators (best case scenario). Then you have a 30/90, no ability, for 5+4 mana. Yay.
Suggestion: Change all 2x's to 3x's, cost/sac to 53

10+10x10=/=30

Tamdrik Wrote:Mechahawk
Mildly too strong compared to Skelebird and its ilk, though keeping in mind that it is slightly less readily incorporated into a beatdown deck (the best dark complementary creatures are inferior to the light and gray counterparts).
Suggestion: 42/50, sac to 43

Agreed, except make it 33

Tamdrik Wrote:Laser Surgeon
The ability isn't all that much better than a standard healer, yet it costs an insane amount of mana, to the point that the value of the ability is trivial. And his stats certainly can't support his mana cost.
Suggestion: Reduce activation cost to 2, fix spelling of "it's" to "its"

Sounds fine, leave the text.

Tamdrik Wrote:CN-62 Autogun
Unless you meet the hefty allying requirements, this probably does almost as much harm as good. And it costs as much as Level 99 Guy. If you can protect a Holy Banisher, it will do more damage than the autogun will (25/turn vs 49/2 turns) unless you have 7 allies. Also compare to invisible attackers.
Suggestion: 66, 50% chance of turn skip, allying 4

Leave the allying, the rest sounds fine.

Tamdrik Wrote:Diamond Clockwork
The clockworks all seem horrible to me, since the allying counterparts seem much less onerous to "turn on", and even if they aren't fully powered up, they still produce something.
Suggestion: 50% chance: Generates , Power 2: Generates additional

Sounds fine.

Tamdrik Wrote:Scanning Field
Someone pointed out that this could get ugly in a shotgun deck. I tend to agree. That said, it is fairly costly. Maybe not costly enough, though. I need to see if it can be broken, but my gut reaction is to increase the cost by about 1/1.

I still say it should only work for monsters without activated abilities.

Tamdrik Wrote:Glowerite Ore / Financium Ore
I think the jury's still out on whether these guys continue to be too strong even after the nerf...

The jury's in, renerefing these would be insane.

Tamdrik Wrote:Energy Surplus
If you actually want to put generators on top of your deck, you're probably really hurting for mana, so paying 2+3 for this will be painful, and you most likely won't be able to trigger the allying clause.
Suggestion: Reduce cost to 12

Sounds fine. Good reasoning.

Tamdrik Wrote:Radioactive Battery
As mentioned above, this is ridiculous when comboed with the current incarnation of the Armormail. Could also be problematic with the Charmshielder.
Suggestion: =>10% chance to destroy monster: Gain

Sounds fine.

Tamdrik Wrote:NM-85 Nanomachine
Might be scary with Radd-lifers, but otherwise almost pointless.
Suggestion: Times 4 instead of 2, add "and takes one damage"?

A 1/1 monster shouldn't really be able to make a radd lifers invulnerable so yeah.. I'd probably reduce the sac considering it has an ability though. And synergies.

Tamdrik Wrote:PR-34 Probebot
The ability is pretty minor, and thus his cost/stats ratio out of whack.
Suggestion: 12 cost, 21 sac

It would be useful with the Khrima's address synergy, so it shouldn't be decreased that much. 2/2 might be okay? At 2/1, it would probably be worth it for the stats alone.

Tamdrik Wrote:Clockwork Paladin
His ability has a pretty high prerequisite. Even if we trade the ability for a permanent +20 life and call it even, he'd be too expensive.
Suggestion: 41 cost, 52 sac

Its current stats and dual type are probably worth 4 and a bit and a anyway, and once you get its ability working, it's pretty powerful, so it's probably overpriced now, but at 4/2 it's fine.

Tamdrik Wrote:CK-3 Sword Dancer
Assuming face-down doesn't confer entrenching, he's too expensive, particularly compared to War Light Spybot.
Suggestion: 33 cost/sac

I agree with the cost change, but I think it's slighty worse than skeleton bird, so I'd increase it's sac to 3/4.

Tamdrik Wrote:CK-66 Ninjitsu
More potent than Tsukeawase (facedown, non-unique) for slightly cheaper.
Suggestion: 58 cost, 69 sac

I'd say 5/8 is fine, but I'd have the sac be less than the cost, because of the robot synergy and the facedown-ness (although it wouldn't stay face-down long).

Tamdrik Wrote:CK-99 Samurai
Even if we assume he tends to hit the board with two other monsters in play, that still makes him a 50/50 on average for the same cost as Mechahawk (which is itself pretty strong). His other drawback is trivially managed/avoided. Facedown-ness is an added bonus.
Suggestion: 43 cost, sac unchanged

With a field full of monsters, it would be balanced, so it needs nerfed badly..

Tamdrik Wrote:TR-32 Variable
Not sure what happens if you switch to fighter mode after the robot has been targeted by a spell/ability. Does it fizzle? If not, then his ability is largely useless. If so, he's probably pretty tasty. No balance suggestions at this time.

It should not fizzle, as immune only affects the targetting. However, its current cost and stats make it slightly worse than Melrak soldier, while the alternative form would be very useful for finishing off high attack/low life monsters. It does not want a boost, it could possibly use a minor nerf, maybe reducing it's sac to 4/4.

Tamdrik Wrote:TR-40 Modulo
Impressively useless. His ability as written would probably be a net loss for you if you decided to use it 95% of the time, and a marginal gain the rest of the time. His stats are strong... for a one-mana monster. Weak otherwise.
Suggestion: Change ability to 3x mana cost of effect, lower cost to 11

At 1/1, a 15/25 would be overpowered. Even a minor ability additional to that would make it even more unbalanced. Make it 2/2, but increase the speed to A, so it can outrun effect D.

Tamdrik Wrote:MX-5 Stonehammer
At first glance, quite strong, but the power requirement is a significant drawback, with the current crop of power generators. Probably fine as-is.

1 power would be easy to obtain, the extra cost or a 1 power generator alone ontop of the stonehammer would be worth it.. however with just one power you could have multiple stonehammers. Needs a small nerf, but nothing major. Maybe make it cost 5/5.

I ran out of time, so this'll do for now.

Akujintails Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:TR-32 Variable
Not sure what happens if you switch to fighter mode after the robot has been targeted by a spell/ability. Does it fizzle? If not, then his ability is largely useless. If so, he's probably pretty tasty. No balance suggestions at this time.

It should not fizzle, as immune only affects the targetting. However, its current cost and stats make it slightly worse than Melrak soldier, while the alternative form would be very useful for finishing off high attack/low life monsters. It does not want a boost, it could possibly use a minor nerf, maybe reducing it's sac to 4/4.

If a monster is targeted by an ability and then gets ability immune, the ability fails.

sXeAndriex Wrote:Also, just to state my opinion: I really dislike mass balancing.

I think it's warranted in this situation, since we have an entire new expansion to balance, and we simply might not get to certain cards otherwise.

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:NM-85 Nanomachine
Might be scary with Radd-lifers, but otherwise almost pointless.
Suggestion: Times 4 instead of 2, add "and takes one damage"?

As with any life increase to Radd lifers it would come out to one. Times four sounds good for now, maybe even more than that. We could always use new reasons to play weenies.

Right, I just meant you can get one Nano out and make a Radd-lifer basically invulnerable. And before you say "more than 4", just remember that if you have multiple Nanos out, they can each apply their life boost. Not that I imagine most people would bother with a field of Nanos.

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:TR-32 Variable
Not sure what happens if you switch to fighter mode after the robot has been targeted by a spell/ability.  Does it fizzle?  If not, then his ability is largely useless.  If so, he's probably pretty tasty.  No balance suggestions at this time.

Variable becomes (spell immune)(ability immune)(quick hit) and... I want to say 13/35. I know it's 35 life and attack in the lower teens.

I've seen it, briefly.  I think it was 15/35, but not positive.  I just wasn't sure if switching after having been targeted with something would cause the ability to fizzle, since he's now everything-immune, or if it would go ahead and resolve, since he was already targeted.

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:TR-40 Modulo
Impressively useless.  His ability as written would probably be a net loss for you if you decided to use it 95% of the time, and a marginal gain the rest of the time.  His stats are strong... for a one-mana monster.  Weak otherwise.
Suggestion: Change ability to 3x mana cost of effect, lower cost to 11

I agree Modulo is pretty junky as is, but I think your suggestion is overboard concidering Bakuga decks are one of the strongest and most popular archtypes around. At 3x a swimsuit would give it 27 more attack, but at the cost of 9 mana I think that's about fair. I'd say... go with the 3x change and drop the cost/sac by 11 each.

Well, 26/2 facedown is a 1/1 beatstick, or 17/17 with mana generation, and the Modulo's ability, even with 3x, just doesn't have a great deal of value (much less than generating , IMO).  No matter how many Golden Idols he eats, he'll still be in Laser range.  I could live with 2/1 cost, but frankly, I don't know that I'd bother even if he were 1/1.  I think Bakuga decks usually tend to have better things to do with the repaired effects than boost a random weenie.  I do like the suggestion to make his ability A-speed to respond to effect-D, though.

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:Chrome Dragon
Let's say you have a full field of War generators (best case scenario). Then you have a 30/90, no ability, for 5+4 mana.  Yay.
Suggestion: Change all 2x's to 3x's, cost/sac to 53

10+10x10=/=30

Fixed.

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:Laser Surgeon
Suggestion: ... fix spelling of "it's" to "its"

Sounds fine, leave the text.

Leave it misspelled?  Why?

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:Scanning Field
Someone pointed out that this could get ugly in a shotgun deck.  I tend to agree.  That said, it is fairly costly.  Maybe not costly enough, though.  I need to see if it can be broken, but my gut reaction is to increase the cost by about 1/1.

I still say it should only work for monsters without activated abilities.

I could see that, but I would then make Scanning Field cheaper.

Akujintails Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:NM-85 Nanomachine

A 1/1 monster shouldn't really be able to make a radd lifers invulnerable so yeah.. I'd probably reduce the sac considering it has an ability though. And synergies.

Well, compared to Crystal Automaton, it's -3/-3 with an ability that is arguably less useful.  I don't have a problem with leaving the sac as-is, but I wouldn't cry if it were dropped to 2/1 or something.

Akujintails Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:PR-34 Probebot
Suggestion: 12 cost, 21 sac

It would be useful with the Khrima's address synergy, so it shouldn't be decreased that much. 2/2 might be okay? At 2/1, it would probably be worth it for the stats alone.

Khrima's Address alone isn't going to break this card.  Also, I don't generally want to pay 2 for a 20/25 with much better sac than this, so I don't really see how the stats are worth 2/1.

Akujintails Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:TR-32 Variable

It should not fizzle, as immune only affects the targetting. However, its current cost and stats make it slightly worse than Melrak soldier, while the alternative form would be very useful for finishing off high attack/low life monsters. It does not want a boost, it could possibly use a minor nerf, maybe reducing it's sac to 4/4.

With webrunner's latest revelation, I don't have a problem with reducing sac to 4/4.

Wait, we're trying to balance the 1/1 monsters against the 1/1 monsters that haven't been balanced yet? That makes no sense.

I mean, really, the likes of Crystal Atomaton are like some crazy uber Tanuki, with stats worthy of a 1.5 mana monster, but 100% generation. Seriously, a 1/1 monster should be halfway between a 1 mana monster (upper end, like Boomboxen, Diane or Tanuki) and a 2 mana monster.

---

The dual gens that require allying want further nerfed to me. Firstly, they cheaply power other allying cards. Secondly, with just three of them out they become dual generators, which can be easily done on turn three. Compared with the existing very highly sought after Stone Orb, Nova Crystal and Onyx Ornament these are simply much, much better. I don't know what would be the best way to fix that - make the dual generation require (Allying 4), make the first generation require (Allying 1), or remove the sac completely. But whatever's done, they need nerfed, or they'll render the existing dual gens completely obsolete.

---

sugegstion Wrote:Exhaust Port Torpedo
Really, really specialized, even in the MC testbed sandbox, and if you don't have a target, you can't cantrip it.
Suggestion: Destroy target effect, if it is a weapon (allows cantrip)

Whoa, you want to add a 1.7 mana Effect D, that potentially cantrips? That's utter madness. I can think one of two alternatives:
Up the cost to maybe 22, and allow it to target any weapon type entity (ie including monster or attach).
Up the cost to 21 or 12, change text to:
Destroy target
Weapon effect, or
Allying 2: Target
player draws a card
(Like how that monster which can target either a monster or player for 5 damage).

for starters, more to come another time.

Just wanted to point out that there *are* some weapons in the other expansions. Nate/George is probably the most popular one, but there are also Cane and even Sword Bomb besides the weak ones.

Haven't finished reading this clump of balances, but Tamdrik seems to have the impression that CN-62 Autogun skips every other turn. It doesn't. Even on your skipped turn, the "skip your next turn" ability triggers, meaning if you play it without 7 allyers already, you'll skip the rest of your turns until the end of the game or it dies. Reading even more carefully, the 49/2 comparison to Holy Banisher is also probably mistaken, as the Autogun shoots every skipped turn as well, making it keep ahead of the banisher.

masamunemaniac Wrote:Wait, we're trying to balance the 1/1 monsters against the 1/1 monsters that haven't been balanced yet? That makes no sense.

I mean, really, the likes of Crystal Atomaton are like some crazy uber Tanuki, with stats worthy of a 1.5 mana monster, but 100% generation. Seriously, a 1/1 monster should be halfway between a 1 mana monster (upper end, like Boomboxen, Diane or Tanuki) and a 2 mana monster.

I personally would like to balance things so that they're balanced in power, not so that they're as weak/crappy/useless as the 1-2 mana creatures that came before it.  Crystal Automaton is a great example of what a cheap creature should be, in my opinion.  Paraman isn't too bad, either, I suppose, but a slight boost probably wouldn't hurt it, either.  Tanukis are terrible, but they were kind of fun as they were uber-rare and the only super-low-cost generator creatures.  Diane's not useful either.  Boomboxen is debatable (I think it could still be better), but its primary use is a Magic Skull with the flexibility to be used as a weenie if you want to.

masamunemaniac Wrote:The dual gens that require allying want further nerfed to me. Firstly, they cheaply power other allying cards. Secondly, with just three of them out they become dual generators, which can be easily done on turn three. Compared with the existing very highly sought after Stone Orb, Nova Crystal and Onyx Ornament these are simply much, much better. I don't know what would be the best way to fix that - make the dual generation require (Allying 4), make the first generation require (Allying 1), or remove the sac completely. But whatever's done, they need nerfed, or they'll render the existing dual gens completely obsolete.

The opinions on this vary, from "nuke them from orbit" (masa) to "further nerfing would be insane" (Andriex).  I think they could probably use a sac decrease, to one mana.

masamunemaniac Wrote:

sugegstion Wrote:Exhaust Port Torpedo
Really, really specialized, even in the MC testbed sandbox, and if you don't have a target, you can't cantrip it.
Suggestion: Destroy target effect, if it is a weapon (allows cantrip)

Whoa, you want to add a 1.7 mana Effect D, that potentially cantrips? That's utter madness. I can think one of two alternatives:
Up the cost to maybe 22, and allow it to target any weapon type entity (ie including monster or attach).
Up the cost to 21 or 12, change text to:
Destroy target
Weapon effect, or
Allying 2: Target
player draws a card
(Like how that monster which can target either a monster or player for 5 damage).

Well, for one thing, it's already a "1.7 mana effect D that potentially cantrips".  It also only targets like 5% of available effects.  Burn Burn targets any effect, with a 50 life penalty, for about the same cost, and it's generally more dangerous (turn 2 lock stuff).  I don't like cards that are useless the vast majority of the time, but potent hosers the rest of the time.  Targeting non-effect weapons makes it slightly more general-purpose, but there are even fewer of those.  So I figure that if I remove the targeting restriction (without changing its effectiveness), I could at least let people cycle the card.  That said, if you want to go with your second suggestion (targeting players), that's fine too, but I don't particularly see the need for a cost increase.