Balance Thread

azulknight Wrote:Haven't finished reading this clump of balances, but Tamdrik seems to have the impression that CN-62 Autogun skips every other turn. It doesn't. Even on your skipped turn, the "skip your next turn" ability triggers, meaning if you play it without 7 allyers already, you'll skip the rest of your turns until the end of the game or it dies. Reading even more carefully, the 49/2 comparison to Holy Banisher is also probably mistaken, as the Autogun shoots every skipped turn as well, making it keep ahead of the banisher.

Huh, I could have sworn when someone played it against me, it did the every-other-turn thing, but maybe I wasn't paying close attention. It was towards the end of a game, so it didn't last long.  I still think 9/9 for something that never lets you take a turn is too high, but I'll have to re-look at it, because if it's as you describe, it seems like there might be some ways to lock down the game, which could merit more creative fixes.

If you've got a nice miasma/magic staff/mountain/tower type stall set up (ie your typical Miasma deck) then Autogun, even with the permaskip, would be a quite useful card. Once it's down it's Death Sentence of 7 or less turns. And if it dies (to break their Death Sentence) then you get to have your turns again, by which point you'll likely have gained the mana/drawn enough cards to play another one. And even though you skip your turns, you can still use abilities/cast spells etc during the opponent's turns.

The Allying requirements simply make it feasible for use outside of a Miasma stall deck - in that in scenarios where you don't have complete lockdown (most of the allying would be from gens) it's still useful.

Think of it like this: 'Give opponent a lifetimer, you can't play any more entities after this turn'

I think it's probably balanced as it is. It's just not being played right.

---

I agree that Energy Surplus should be reduced to 12, or possibly even 11. Remember that it doesn't even cycle very well - later game it'll replace itself with a generator, but it'll also force your next draw to be a generator, which is pretty rubbish later on anyway. It's only good for catching up after Mana Screw, which I'd like to be as cheap as balancingly possible.

---

Exo-Suit: Balanced? Please compare to EXP-in-a-Can. That also snipes the enemy's robots. Should probably cost 43, or at least 33.

---

Atomic Energy - Generator type?
Gravity Cannon - Weapon type?
Hydrogen Cell - Generator Device type?
Nuclear Plant - Generator Building type?
Replibot Hive - Territory type?
Valian Action Figure - Generator type?
Far'thin Action Figure - Generator type?
Norlaan Figurine - Generator type?
Ugly Socks - Equipment type?
Marcus (War) - Unique Alien Infiltrator type?
Cherry (War) - Unique Elf Hero type?
Gatemaster - Unique Scientist Villain type?

---

Damn getting distracted while typing, people sneak in replies...
Anyway, For Exhaust Port Torpedo, changing it to target any effect would make it a 1.7 mana universal Effect D which would be broken and despised. It would be like a Burn Burn which didn't cost the extra 50 life, and on top of that could potentially cantrip... it'd be the Ancestral Recall of Effect D...

Tamdrik Wrote:I think it's warranted in this situation, since we have an entire new expansion to balance, and we simply might not get to certain cards otherwise.

Yeah, I can understand your reasoning and thats why I'm not making an arguement for "OMG STOPZ!" I just wanted to pointed out for future reference, if people try to drag this over to the real balance fourm.

Tamdrik Wrote:Right, I just meant you can get one Nano out and make a Radd-lifer basically invulnerable.

You can do the exact same thing for one less mana with Diane.

Tamdrik Wrote:And before you say "more than 4", just remember that if you have multiple Nanos out, they can each apply their life boost. Not that I imagine most people would bother with a field of Nanos.

Re:Modulo
[quote=Tamdrik]I do like the suggestion to make his ability A-speed to respond to effect-D, though.

Yeah, I like that as well.

Tamdrik Wrote:Leave it misspelled? Why?

Good grammar is evil.

masamunemaniac Wrote:Wait, we're trying to balance the 1/1 monsters against the 1/1 monsters that haven't been balanced yet? That makes no sense.

I mean, really, the likes of Crystal Atomaton are like some crazy uber Tanuki, with stats worthy of a 1.5 mana monster, but 100% generation. Seriously, a 1/1 monster should be halfway between a 1 mana monster (upper end, like Boomboxen, Diane or Tanuki) and a 2 mana monster.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm balancing against that because I think it's balanced. There's no reason to have any more rediculously bad weenies. I'd say balancing against the existing 1 mana creatures makes less sense, as nearly everyone agree's that they're too weak.

Boomboxen and the Tanukis actually see use. And webrunner has previously stated before (along the lines of) that he wanted all of the 1mana monster s to be along Boomboxen's power level...

Figure now might be a good time to boost the 1 mana monsters, seeing as we're on a multiple-update-per-day mode?

masamunemaniac Wrote:Exo-Suit: Balanced? Please compare to EXP-in-a-Can. That also snipes the enemy's robots. Should probably cost 43, or at least 33.

My initial knee-jerk when I saw it was "Wow, that's way better than EXP in a Can".  Then I said "Wait... you can't play a mod to surprise someone while they're attacking your creature."  Since that's a pretty big reason to play stat boosters to maximize their effectiveness, I figured it balanced out.

masamunemaniac Wrote:Anyway, For Exhaust Port Torpedo, changing it to target any effect would make it a 1.7 mana universal Effect D which would be broken and despised. It would be like a Burn Burn which didn't cost the extra 50 life, and on top of that could potentially cantrip... it'd be the Ancestral Recall of Effect D...

Oh, maybe you misunderstood.  What I meant was that you could target any effect, but it would only do anything to it if it were a weapon.  The targeting was just to be able to trigger the cantrip.

masamunemaniac Wrote:Boomboxen and the Tanukis actually see use. And webrunner has previously stated before (along the lines of) that he wanted all of the 1mana monster s to be along Boomboxen's power level...

The tanukis only see use because they're cool, not because they're powerful.  They're actually very weak.  Boomboxen, as I said earlier, is significantly better, but still debatable, IMO.

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:Right, I just meant you can get one Nano out and make a Radd-lifer basically invulnerable.

You can do the exact same thing for one less mana with Diane.

But you can't continually pump it up if your opponent can't damage it every turn.

Tamdrik Wrote:

masamunemaniac Wrote:Anyway, For Exhaust Port Torpedo, changing it to target any effect would make it a 1.7 mana universal Effect D which would be broken and despised. It would be like a Burn Burn which didn't cost the extra 50 life, and on top of that could potentially cantrip... it'd be the Ancestral Recall of Effect D...

Oh, maybe you misunderstood. What I meant was that you could target any effect, but it would only do anything to it if it were a weapon. The targeting was just to be able to trigger the cantrip.

Oh, alright, that makes alot more sense. I read your suggestion the same way Masamune did. I kind if like the ability to 'cycle' the card even without a destroyable target.

sXeAndriex Wrote:

Tamdrik Wrote:Right, I just meant you can get one Nano out and make a Radd-lifer basically invulnerable.

You can do the exact same thing for one less mana with Diane.

But you can't continually pump it up if your opponent can't damage it every turn.
I figure that's fine since it's double the cost and fairly useless if played alone (for non-radd lifers, o'course.)

As Tamdrik says, a healer can only restore the last point of damage to a Radd Lifer, and only if damaged. Nanomachines could give invulnerability in advance, before it takes the damage, and is also effective when snipers etc are employed.

---

And yeah, I totally misunderstood what you said about Exhaust Port Torpedo... I'd be perfectly happy with being able to cycle it through targetting a non-weapon.

---

Would it be worth starting a thread in here for rebalancing the 1 mana monsters? I mean there's no point in leaving them underpoweered and obsolete is there?

masamunemaniac Wrote:Would it be worth starting a thread in here for rebalancing the 1 mana monsters? I mean there's no point in leaving them underpoweered and obsolete is there?

I don't know... I'd like the idea of quoting some of the 1-mana monster stuff from BlueElites extremely well put together list o' balance. However, might want to ask Webrunner first. Didn't he have all of his empty slots for fixing cards taken up by MC stuff? I thought that was mentioned.

Ugh.. the allying gens have been castrated. Allying 4. They're basically useless outside of an allying deck. I guess I'll just have to start using non-MC gens in the beta (or building allying decks).

Let's see really quick...

Hand of 5 Nova Crystals at start:
Turn 1: Nothing (Nothing)
Turn 2: Nova (1 in play)
Turn 3: Nova (2 in play)
Turn 4: Nova (3 in play)
Turn 5: Nova x2 (5 in play, 1/1/5)

Hand of 1 Spirit Bead, 1 Power Crystal, 3 Nova Crystals, draw novas
Turn 1: Bead, Crystal (equivalent of 1 nova but extra slot taken)
Turn 2: Nova (eq. 2 nova)
Turn 3: Nova (eq. 3 nova)
Turn 4: 2x Nova, saccing a basic gen (eq. 4.5 nova)
Turn 5: 1x Nova, saccing the other basic (5 nova, 4/4/5 +1D or L)

Hand of Orb, Skull, Novas, drawing Novas
Turn 1: Orb, Skull (stored mana)
Turn 2: 2x Nova (2 nova)
Turn 3: Nova (3 nova)
Turn 4: 2x Nova (5 nova, 0/0/4)

Hand of 3 Stellarite Ore and 2 Cosmerium Ore
Turn 1: Stellarite
Turn 2: Cosmerium
Turn 3: Stellarite + Cosmerium
Turn 4: Stellarite (Allying online, 5 novas, 2/1/4?)

Hand of all Stellarite Ore
Turns 1-5: 1x Stellarite (allying online, 5 novas, 0/0/5)

Sure, they're weaker, but still viable. Energy Surplus helps. I wouldn't mind knocking them back down to costing a single mana with allying 4, though, being that it was my original suggestion page 1. EDIT: Or keep the double cost and bring it to allying 3, I guess...

Also, I second the nerfing of Mechahawk and insist on it for Scrap Heap.

I can see single-mana, allying 4 (would have to have zero sac), or, and I think this is still a little on the weakish side, 2 mana and allying 3.  But I still feel like just reducing sac was probably the best solution, possibly even eliminating sac, from the 2-mana/allying 2 state.  

The other problem with allying 4 is that it basically prevents you from being able to use any other effects if you want to reliably produce decent mana, unless, as I mentioned earlier, you are playing an allying deck full of allying creatures.

Remember that they also power your other Allying monsters, and said monsters also power the gens. With the gens alone out you're already set-up for Mechazor abilities, and generate the mana to play one every turn.
I'd rather see them at Allying 3 than only costing one mana - at one mana they become splash gens, capable of tripling early mana supply. This would be very very bad in my opinion.

---

Scrap Heap either wants to gain only 5-7 attack with the allying, or wants its sac reduced to about 3/2 or less I'd say, just as it's currently much better than Skeletal Bird - and its Allying 1 is such a trivial requirement that it's actually a bonus, as it fuels your other allies.

Mechahawk needs similar treatment - either bring its stats below that of Skeletal Bird, or reduce its stats to be roughly equal and also reduce the sac.

---

Nuclear Plant seems pretty powerful as well - its the perfect generator for monsterless/stall or weenies/swarming. I'd reduce the sac to 1/1 just so that everyone doesn't use it over Nova Crystal.

---

Okay, I know there's disagreement about the 1/1 mana monsters, but really, look at Crystal Atomaton. It sacs for the same proft as a Magic Orb, and it can be kept to generate as well, and it can deal some early game damage in the first few turns too. Even if nothing else is reduced, bring the sac down to just 1, that way no mana is gained or lost when sacrificed the turn after.

---

Spore Flower's ability seems quite a lot more reliable and powerful to me than that of Magmancer, and it even has better stats too, for 2 less mana cost. I'd probably make it a wall - it doesn't quite seem right that a flower can attack over long distances - and that might just do that job (although it count maybe stand to lose 3-6 lifepoints too).

---

Anyway, I think this would be the problem with mass balances - there's little focus to change a particular card, and some get skipped over. I mean, if I were reading through a few posts balancing about 40 cards in each of them, with differing opinions and suggestions, I'd be lost. Getting through a decent-sized handful a day will get us there eventually.

As I've finally gotten a chance to test the gens out at Allying: 4 I could agree that they should be dropped back down. It's just a little too much this way to make the gens worthwhile. If I were playing in the real game I wouldn't even bother with these in anything other than an allying deck.

Question: If I have comments about the MC starters, do I put them here or should I make a new thread? I mean... I guess it's balancing them >.>

Ehnn, I'd leave balancing the starters until the individual cards are balanced, unless there's something quite obviously unbalanced with them (independant of how broken the individual cards are).

---

I think Allying 3 might possibly suffice, but I stand by the fact that Allying 2 is far too easy to reach however. And that, whatever happens, that they should never go back down to a single mana to play (using the turns/novas example above, costing a single mana you could get 5 novas on turn 2).

Well, one thing that stood out playing with Cosmic Energies was that it had two copies of Stellar Clockwork (req. 2 power) and only one copy of nuclear plant (provides 1 power), so they're impossible to use.

I'd think that'd be more of a bug than a balance issue... a rebalance or oversight has caused the starter deck to 'not work', rather than be 'unbalanced'. Might want stuck on the wiki page?

I thought I removed the clockworks from the starters already?

Confirming the contents: It is One Nuclear Plant and 2x Stellar Clockworks. Just bought a pack a minute ago.

Can someone make a list of the cards in the starters that can't be reasonably used because there's not enough power?

Metallic March
Power Sources: Solar Panel x3 (provides 1 each)
Power Users: Missilepod x2 (requires 1 each)
Sufficient power!

Robot Invasion
Power Sources: Fossil Engine x1 (provides 1 each)
Power Users: Shadow Clockwork x2 (requires 2 each)
Insufficient power!

Cosmic Energies
Power Sources: Nuclear Plant x1 (provides 1 each)
Power Users: Stellar Clockwork x2 (requires 2 each)
Insufficient power!