Balance Thread

Blue_Elite Wrote:Well, the card IS called Blank Clone and not Doppleganger; so losing the ability of the copied monster wouldn't be totally unflavorful. It'd be on par with how monsters made with It's Alive! lose their ability. It also makes Blank Clone comparable to Robot Duplicate in that the stats are copied but not the ability (though that may be a negative more than a positive in regards to intent of the card).

I want it to copy the ability too. That is very much part of the intent of the card.

Blue_Elite Wrote:Would it be bad for Orbital Cannon to only be able to fire every three turns and be played facedown? It could work the same way Gunner Turret does only it gains a counter every draw phase (or end turn).

Is this in addition to the "always block dizzy" thing? Or replacing it?

Orbital Cannon: Making the ability cost a counter and having the cannon gain 1 counter every draw phase might be a good way to cap use.

Um........get a redemption code and sell it for 500000 points.

The big problem with Blank Clone is only with a select few targets that enable very easy infinite comboing. I can only think of Faritin off the top of my head that would be broken (others would be very powerful, but probably not broken). An effective but utterly flavorless solution would be to restrict use against Faritin, or even against royalty (by monster types). Not suggesting we go that route though...

The problem with dizzying/dizzy-locking/poisoning etc is that it works as a general nerf, but it still doesn't stop the infinite combo problem. One thing I thought of that could, would be a status effect that dealt damage every time the monster dizzied. While this would usually slowly eat at the life of the Clones, it would quite rapidly kill anything trying an infinite combo. You could make it flavorful by saying that the clone sloyly deteriorates, but it does so at a much faster rate if it tries to push itself beyond its limits (repeated undizzying). It could still be bypassed with Save Point, but then most things can really.

A solution that minimises the hurt against normal clones but maximises against infinite comboing: Every time the monster dizzies, it takes 10c damage, and then c goes up by 1. Every draw phase, c goes down by 1, but doesn't go lower than 1.

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Points solution with one less step - realise that to have all those Trophy Seals that you've already used a redemption code, so just sell it or part of it.
And are you doing some kind of story in your avatars Blue_Elite? I've lost track of the plot. You also seem to have gone back in time, having not got the Polar Star anymore.

I say bah to you all who dislike the idea of copying uniques. I would play Blank Clone as an overcosted niche card for the sake of having multiple Ardams on the field, or Meilars, or Norlaans.

The easy fix is to have Blank Clone only clone non-uniques. That will prevent all the messy infinite stuff and a few other ... interesting things I found:
Ensign Redshirt (so which one dies?)
King Valiron (more undizzying)
The Unspoken (So what happens when they "kill" each other? O_o)
MANTIS B32M (So who's attack will it be? or will they just take each other's?)

Also, I'd like to know if nanoreplicatored? Seal of Trophyness actually means you can get 12800 points per game >_>

azulknight Wrote:I say bah to you all who dislike the idea of copying uniques. I would play Blank Clone as an overcosted niche card for the sake of having multiple Ardams on the field, or Meilars, or Norlaans.

I say bah to you, have as many Ardams, Meilars or Norlaans as you like. They aren't the issue.
The infinite combo for instafirestorm win is the issue.

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Ensign Redshirt: The ability (I think) works a la Noble Sacrifice, preventing all damage. If they're both in combat, they both die, as their death is a plain selfdestruct, and not selfdamage.
King Valiron: This could lead to either unlimited healing via Lifegivers, or unlimited Dark damage via Smitemancers, but no instant win.
The Unspoken: If they both kill each other, they'll both gain life and both survive. There's no problem here, even if they both go over 500 life simultaneously. It's the person who's turn is next that will win though.
MANTIS B32M: Whoever goes first would take the base attack of the other (30 iirc), and whoever goes second would take the 30 from the other. I guess... it probably depends on who's further right/left, but it's irrelevant so long as neither of them have had their base attack altered - and for the most point they won't be as it's near pointless to do so. Very very rare scenario.
Seal of Trophyness: Does not stack. Blue_Elite was trying this. If it did stack then it would give the owner(s) of both trophies not unbalancingly broken decks, but unbalancingly broken accounts.

masamunemaniac Wrote:King Valiron: This could lead to either unlimited healing via Lifegivers, or unlimited Dark damage via Smitemancers, but no instant win.

Well, if you attach an Arm Cannon or Stellar Forcefield to a Paladin, you could get some interesting effects...  I dunno about instant win, but you might be able to have an infinitely tough Gorthox, depending on how temp life is handled. :)  And you'd definitely be able to turn a Paladin into a walking Vulcan cannon to sweep the enemy field clear of creatures.

Hello Wrote:The easy fix is to have Blank Clone only clone non-uniques. That will prevent all the messy infinite stuff and a few other ... interesting things I found:

Again, not cloning uniques is out of the question. At that point I might as well remove the card entirely as far as I'm concerned.

Cloning uniques is -why- I made the card to begin with.

The 'detoriation by dizzy' status effect seems reasonable. I'll look into that.

I was going back through my balance posts to try to annotate the ones that had been addressed, and as I checked out the new Chrome Dragon, I did a double-take.  Can someone please check my math or let me know how I managed to misread the card again?  It's one of like 3 cards I haven't drawn in my ridiculous number of boosters (probably ~200).

Poison or dizzy-disintegrate will do if it'll be left at that... as an alternative, you can give it "when this is targeted by a spell or ability, it is destroyed". Can't be undizzied except by global then, and blows up very easily. I just haven't seen it broken yet, and it's already easy to firestorm someone dead just with Faritin, manamancers, and trenches. If someone starts abusing it, you also can stop playing them, or counter their Firestorm, or carry more FtMCs, Reclaimations, Dissolving Acids...

Faritin's undizzy is global, so that solution still doesn't really stop the insta-win infinite combo. And besides that, being able to use a foombolt/undizzier/sniper as full-blown Monster D would make the clones far too fragile.

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Chrome Dragon
(2x5)x((2x5)+(2x5)) = 10x(10+10)=10x20=200
Sounds about right. Throw some of these in a deck filled with Elemental Artifacts, a few of those filters and a bucket or two, and a 200/90 every couple of turns would probably be fairly easy to pull off.
5 effects would be easy to pull off for almost any deck - if you lose less in a Chrome Dragon deck you're just crippling yourself, so let's assume that you always have 5 effects.
54 is worth a 65/56 with a proper monster type. Considering that Chrome Dragon has a massive 90 life, and that it's Sealingproof, it could do with a massive attack reduction. Maybe just (3*artifacts)+(3*generators)+(3*effects) for 30 attack with 5 gens or 45 with Elerelics? If it's a little weak then allow all gens and artifacts into the count (ie not just gen and artifact effects), to allow for a bit more power through attaching. Also, given it's great stat potential and high life, I'd knock its sac way down (to at least the same equivalent as Twisted Paladin).

Also, yikes, there's been a rebalance! I really hope I've got this wrong.
(3x5)x((3x5)+(3x5)) = 15x(15+15)=15x30=450
Wow, that's the kind of stats you'd expect after paying for Eternion. Oh, and even if that is wrong:
((3x5)x(3x5))+(3x5) = (15x15)+15=225+15=240
Which again, you'd expect of an Eternal, not a Twisted Paladin paletteswap.

hmm.

What i'm thinking (and didn't fully implement) is to take the arfiact requirement out and replace it with a different type -one that doesnt appear on generators.

Maybe "* non-generator effects you control".

Then we can have a higher X than 2 and have it so a field full of one or two specifc cards doesn't through-the-roof it since it counts on both.

By the way, could you clear up the order of operations on the math?  Without parentheses, it would normally be a + (b * c), but for some unknown reason the wording makes me feel like it means (a + b) * c.

Also, even in the first case, if both multipliers are 3x, then you still end up with 69 attack, and it's trivially achieved (basically just have a full field of effects, either 2 or 3 of which are generators). That's not ridiculously high, but I think that would push the cost up a smidge, like maybe 6/4 or 6/5.

I would say that if getting the attack past 30 is trivial, it needs a cost increase and sac decrease re: Twisted Paladin (even at 30 I'd probably prefer Chrome Dragon anyway).

I won't suggest any actual numbers until I see how its attack is calculated though.

I suggest Exo-suit get a minor cost bump to make it 33 from 32. It's essentially EXP-in-a-can, but is uncounterable, enables allying, and has a minor ability. Robot type comes with both pluses and minuses, so it's not a factor.

Exo-Suit has its pluses and minuses relative to EXP-in-a-Can, but overall I think it should cost at least the same. And 33 is kinda accepted as being the same as 5. ie agreement with azul.

Pros
Uncounterable
Powers Allying
Hoser snipe (effective vs MC)
Protection from Modifiers
Robot synergies
+20 attack is constant and not base (ie harder to reduce via Miasma, Sealing etc)

Cons
Playable on Play phase only (No surprise value)
Robot weaknesses
Doesn't power stuff like Mural and Y3C

While I like Mad Tinkerer and the new Clockworks, Spanky demonstrated last night that they make a really easy to get out mana+carddraw engine. While the Tinkerer is pretty easily killed, this might be a bit overpowered. Would changing Tinkerer's gain to 21 be okay?

Also, still need a balance for Orbital Cannon.

EMP Emitter: This card seems a bit overpowered to me.

55


Plays Face Down
A-speed Counterspell
Dizzy all robots

The counterspell is comparable to Infinity Shield(4), but reusuable. Since it's a counterspell it can defend itself from an effect d. Not to mention that anyone unfortunate to play a robot deck will be at the mercy of this one card, just as an added bonus. The Face Down retains the ability to play the counterspell without the opponent knowing you have it.

The only downside is that it double dizzys, but an extra counterspell or second EMP (which I have seen on multiple occasions) quickly reduces that problem

Considering its usefulness, my suggestions are:

1: Activation cost. Even something like 1 or 2 would make the counterspell more reasonable

2: Require a robot on your side of the field: This might be too much of a nerf, as not only will using it affect you, but make the card useless if you dont have any robots out. (Of course, the most difficult part of this option is finding room on the card to write it)

Bonebreak Wrote:55

Plays Face Down
A-speed Counterspell
Dizzy all robots

2: Require a robot on your side of the field: This might be too much of a nerf, as not only will using it affect you, but make the card useless if you dont have any robots out. (Of course, the most difficult part of this option is finding room on the card to write it)

That solution amuses me. Go with that.