1mana monsters

When War was released, there was an initial 'uproar' about Boomboxen being much better than the other 1mana monsters - it the cost of just a few statpoints (relative to Ks/evils/grems) they had 1 extra sac and an admittedly minor ability.

webrunner stated something vaguely along the lines of wanting to have all the 1 mana monsters at Boomboxen's level.

Seeing as the new 1/1 monsters are way above the current 1mana monsters, and arguably above the 2mana monsters, this might be a good time for those much needed boosts.

Question is, what's acceptable? Just stats/sac? Are minor Boomboxen-esque (mostly useless but occasionally useful) abilities okay? What about mechanics/abilities that weren't available in that expansion to start with?

Once we have the answer to this, our 'goal', we'll be able to work towards it.

Examples for Lowly Slime:
* Change stats to 14/14?
* Change sac to 3?
* Destroyed: Your other slimes gain +1/+1? (New ability, changes concept)
* Lowly Slime loses this ability: Target slime gets +4/+4? (Temp stats and ability loss not in Prime, also changes concept)
* Allying 7: Target player puts the bottommost slime in their deck to the top, or target Face Down slime is revealed and loses all of its abilities until the owner's next sacrifice phase? (Completely random abilities from a set that's not even released yet, concept out the window)

How far can we go?
Edit:Merged both of my posts

i woudlnt be adverse to adding abilities to the 1 and 2 mana monsters that dont have them.

Ooh, and 'into play: bottomost to top' ability would be nice for one of them, wouldn't it?


Shouldn't this be in the regular balance forum though?

Yes, yes it probably should be in the normal balance forum. It's just that, I, um, I... watashi, watashi wa... I'm posting in the wrong forum as part of the run-up to Hallowe'en! :insert_teardrop_smiley_here:

I'm sure I can find and talk some mod into moving it for me

In defense of masa posting here: the normal balance thread has been all but ignored since MC beta came out.

Any idea what the running total of 1 coster threads this makes? Web, I know you typically like to leave things to the players to balance, but there's so much diversity in opinion for what to do with 1-costers that a fear we'll never make any solid ground.
If you'd be willing, would you give 1 example of some changes you'd feel would still be in flavor to the concept of the 1-coster cards; just so we at least have a basis for saying "yea" or "nay"?

You don't have to think of something for all of these but for simplicity, here's all the 1 coster monsters (aside from NPC, Boomboxen, etc.):

Just to reiterate what I've said before, if we leave them ability-less, I think 9/29 (or 24/1) is probably a reasonable statline for a 1-mana creature.  Note that when you factor in card cost, they are ~80% as expensive as 2-mana creatures, which themselves are often pretty crappy.

Possible minor abilities:
Destroy [card]: Target monster takes 10 damage.

Target monster takes one damage.  (yes, I know this is useful against Radd-lifers/lifebars.  It should be useful for something)

Destroy [card]: Target monster gains 15 life until end of turn.

[card] loses this ability: Draw a card.

Into play: 50% chance of drawing a card.

Into play: A random monster you control takes 5 damage (on, say, a 28/1 one-coster)

Into play: A random monster your opponent controls takes 10 damage.

Into play: Your opponent takes 9 damage.

Into play: The bottommost [card] in your deck is placed on top.

Destroy [card]: Return target effect controlled by opponent to his hand.

Target monster gains 3 attack.

6: Destroy [card] and target effect.

Destroy [card] and target monster with 15% or less of its original life.

: Destroy [card] and target monster whose life is less than [card]'s attack.

Leaves play: Gain (1 mana of its color)

Make monster a 1-life 'lifebar' monster (no overflow damage)

Destroy [card]: Counter all abilities after this one (Speed C)

Blue Wrote:In defense of masa posting here: the normal balance thread has been all but ignored since MC beta came out.

No no no, it was an accident. I didn't post it in the wrong forum just to get a quick reply from webrunner. Geez, what'll I get accused of next? Using Fall '06 as an excuse to repeatedly beatrush people into the ground?

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These are the generated monsters, for reference.
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Now to assign minor abilities and hope we can get agreement on at least some of them... I won't bother with sac until after we've come to a semblance of agreement on the abilities.

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Lowly Slime - Destroy Lowly Slime, target slime gets +5/+5 (they just merge into it in the regular slimey way)
Kelar Citizen - Draw phase: If you control Elven City Kel'Sor, gain (they work & earn money there =P, also helps with the high maint and warrior making)
Gremlin - Destroy Gremlin: Target monster with life less than Gremlin's attack is destroyed. (This was admittedly arbitrarily picked)
Skeleton - If Skeleton attacks directly, put the top card of the opponent's deck into their graveyard and destroy Skeleton. (Graveyard interaction on a skeleton? Madness!)
Melrak Follower - 4 Destroy Melrak Follower: Destroy target nondark effect (Doesn't make sense for them to go breaking down obelisks)
Holy Acolyte - Target player gains 4 life (Clerics and life, thematic, no? S speed for commonsense's sake.)
Fairy - Leave play: Gain (Shouldn't affect the tokens, makes normal ones 0 cost blockers/flankers or Orbs)
Mubble - 50% chance to dizzy target monster, lose this ability (50% to prevent Mubble Forest becoming a SWIMSUIT)
K-Army Guy - Destroyed: All heroes lose 3 attack (The heroes just got tired of dealing with so many of them, but it's still weaker than War Chookie)
Evil Soldier - Damages a dizzy monster: That monster takes an additional 5 damage (Assuming they're all as blind as 347, they're ineffective vs moving targets? Naw, not really, arbitrary again)
Skyrian Soldier - Target trap entity is flipped face up (Skyrian magical 'attunity')
Lokar Guard - The bottommost Soldier in your deck is placed on top, lose this ability (Calling in reinforcements! Plus a new synergy...)

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Let's try an iterative approach to this, as the possibilities are endless. Either reject a card with balance concern, reject a card and think up a somewhat flavoury alternative, or accept a card. We'll go one proposal at a time until we've got an agreement on abilities. After that, we'll see if any stat tweaks are needed, and then who's candidate for increased sac. I'll update every handful of replies so that we know where we stand.

nekomasa Wrote:Skyrian Soldier - Target trap entity is flipped face up (Skyrian magical 'attunity')

There's no way to tell if a face down card is a trap or not.

Visually, or code-wise for the ability?

I was just thinking that maybe you could try using the ability on facedowns, and if no resolve starts, its not a trap. But thinking about it, I guess that even if it did work, there's not much stopping you from targetting the ability on multiple facedowns to see if they're traps (even if they don't successfully get flipped up). It'd probably be too strong for a 1 mana monster to be able to do that.

Skyrian Soldier - Target effect is flipped face up

(For more than one use, works out more expensive than the likes of Sensor Sweep, and can still be easily killed if the flipping could prove ruinous. Plus, actually resolving and using up mana on non-trap effects is probably weaker than the previous suggestion anyway.)

Lowly Slime: Gives a reason to not just use Slime Champion, accept
Kelar Citizen: The mana gen seems too low to be worth while given it only works with an expensive card, but the flip side is that this combos well with Manamancer on top of that... accept
Gremlin: Good to see lifebar hate back, accept (the only way this really posses a threat is if your deck relies on lifebar monsters).
Skeleton: Accept
Melrak Follower: A more vulnerable form of Smash Hopes (can be countered AND killed) with a lower speed. I guess sense it can damage directly before killing an effect, just make it at least C speed and then I'll accept.
Holy Acolyte: Accept
Fairy: As long as it doesn't affect the tokens, accept.
Mubble: Make it E speed so that basically it's nothing more than a beatstick guard. Even if you keep it at D speed however, accept.
K-Army Guy: Thematically speaking all the Heros should take minor damage (random encounters wear down your H.P., and the EXP gained from that increases attack). Unfortunately doing that hoses Sheena, especially in her NPC mode. Accept just on idea.
Skyrian Soldier: Accept.
Lokar Guard: Accept

so gremlin pit would basically be 2D: destroy target lifebar monster.

That's a pretty huge hoser isn't it? it'd devalue every lifebar monster currently existing to the point of worthlessness.

I'm all for the occasional hoser but mechanic genocide?

Forgot about Gremlin Pit >_>.
How about: Destroyed: Opponent tages 5 damage. Would that still work on tokens?

Lowly Slime: Funny (if only to meand it makes it a mini-amorphous (a good thing.)
Kelar Citizen: Eh, nothing really wrong with it, but it just seems too weak. Especially for one of the weaker races.
Gremlin: No thanks.
Skeleton: Fine by me, though I'll admit I have a place in my heart for an old suggestion. Something along the lines of when it leaves play 50% chance to place a magic skull in empty effect slot.
Melrak Follower: I'd prefer follower synergy.
Holy Acolyte: Sounds great, I'd go with five.
Fairy: With fairy forest, it's a bit to strong. I'd prefer giving it Target attacking monster attacks this one instead, if Fairy is free to block.
Puts it on par with Slime Valley and I think it's pretty thematic given how annoying I find fairys (fairy's? fairies?)
Mubble: Sounds good.
K-Army Guy: Sounds good. I love weenies that fit the theme.
Skyrian Soldier: The second suggestion sounds good. The flip any card one.
Lokar Guard: After a look at how many soldiers there are in CMC, accept. This could cause a weird archtype to pop up...

I'd just like to say I love this idea, but I don't think it suits the ones that come from generators. At least from the generator, the card cost doesn't weigh in at all, making them a bit more feasible.

nekomasa Wrote:Gremlin - Destroy Gremlin: Target monster with life less than Gremlin's attack is destroyed. (This was admittedly arbitrarily picked)

For him I like the one proposed before: "If non-token, target monster takes 10 damage, gremlin becomes a token." Generated gremlins are powerful enough.

nekomasa Wrote:Skeleton - If Skeleton attacks directly, put the top card of the opponent's deck into their graveyard and destroy Skeleton. (Graveyard interaction on a skeleton? Madness!)

I don't like dropping cards into the grave. Fossile engine gives you 1 power for just a 30% chance of this. How about:
"On play: Skeleton gains +1 attack for every card of type skeleton in your grave"

nekomasa Wrote:Mubble - 50% chance to dizzy target monster, lose this ability (50% to prevent Mubble Forest becoming a SWIMSUIT)

Even at 50% that's a powerful card. Mubble are the cute fuzzy animals, how about some sort of synergy with chooks?

nekomasa Wrote:K-Army Guy - Destroyed: All heroes lose 3 attack (The heroes just got tired of dealing with so many of them, but it's still weaker than War Chookie)

Kind of dependant on your opponent running a light deck. How about " Destroy self, Dark Lord Khrima (if in play) is undizzied)"

All other sound good.

webrunner Wrote:so gremlin pit would basically be 2D: destroy target lifebar monster.

Actually, I didn't have Lifebar in mind at all when I thought of that. It was completely not the intention of the proposal. Glad it got shot down at an early stage. (Wow, Pit would even wipe out Armormails like that...)
Also I blame Tamdrik for not putting a "not suitable for generated monsters" disclaimer on that idea.

Anyway, Blue's ensuing suggestion also fits the random dark monster theme (maybe??), so let's go with it. And no, a destruction ability wouldn't affect the spawnable tokens, I think.

Fairy: With Fairy Forest it's not strong at all - destruction abilities don't activate on tokens, unless I'm mistaken (good chance). So unless you say otherwise I'll take that as acceptance.

Also, we're going by idea here rather than balance - if an idea seems a bit weaker than the rest, then we have a candidate for the extra sac point a la Boomboxen. Such as Kelar Citizen with the current suggestion. And a couple of statpoints can be reassigned at the end if needs be.

Currently accepted?
Lowly Slime - Destroy Lowly Slime, target slime gets +5/+5
Holy Acolyte - Target player gains 4 life
Fairy - Leave play: Gain (Nontoken only)
K-Army Guy - Destroyed: All heroes lose 3 attack
Evil Soldier - Damages a dizzy monster: That monster takes an additional 5 damage
Skyrian Soldier - Target trap entity is flipped face up
Lokar Guard - The bottommost Soldier in your deck is placed on top, lose this ability

Kinda undecided
Kelar Citizen - Draw phase: If you control Elven City Kel'Sor, gain (Not sure where to go next if this is undecided)
Skeleton - If Skeleton attacks directly, put the top card of the opponent's deck into their graveyard and destroy Skeleton. (We'll go with the Magic Skull idea next if this isn't liked)

New/change ideas:
Gremlin - Destroyed: Opponent takes 5 damage. (Nontoken only)
Mubble - 50% chance to dizzy target monster, lose this ability (Down from D speed)
Melrak Follower - 4 Destroy Melrak Follower: Destroy target nondark effect (If you want a follower synergy, suggest something that can fit on one line)

Edit: This doesn't consider Blackfox's post. I'll maybe catch it next time, which'll probably be again tonight. And 'accepted' cards aren't set in stone, so I'll pull them out if more than one person argues them with the power of logic beams

Kelar Citizen: Was thinking gen considering if you fill your slots with them, you've got no attack or defense power basically. Was unsure as you could just as easily fill up the slots, lose 1-2 in a turn, then gen 6 mana by them alone and sac them to play something big.
Also there's "Destroy, target dark elf gains entrenching until next draw phase" E speed. I checked with web and temporary Entrenching is indeed possible.

Melrak Follower: Gains 12 temp life when a type Follower monster uses an ability on it (Melrak Inquisitor and Melrak Motivator in mind).

BlackFox:
Mubble: Chooks and Mubbles come from 2 different worlds (comics).

K-Army Guy: Throw in a Hero Hair.

Hmm, temporary entrenching's possible huh? I knew that conditional entrenching was, but not that you could bestow it upon other monsters. As it's not used as of yet. That could prove useful - it'd be a nice way to get your Kelar Sage to survive its first turn. Well, on occasion. We can go with that for the next proposal.

Melrak Follower: Nah, I'll reject that on the basis that it'll kill the flavour text. Something shorter? Plus Inquisitor would still OHKO it.

K-Army Guy and Hero Hair: Anyone else think that the potential for a shared -15 attack once this slow combo's in place is too strong? If so, say so or suggest an alternative please.

Also, we'd be dropping opponent's cards to the grave with the skeleton idea (which destroys the skeleton as a drawback, btw)

One more person and I'll go update the list.

So we're ignoring set chronology for these?

Lowly Slime: accepted
Kelar Citizen: I think it should get Entrenching while another Dark Elf is in play. Mostly I was thinking the battle-ready ones would protect the citizens, though Scholars and Authors aren't exactly battle-ready. If all we have is the mana-generation one, fine.
Gremlin: 5 damage on destroyed nontokens works for me.
Skeleton: The milling idea seems fine to me. I can picture the bones collapsing after a good whack.
Melrak Follower: I think it should have if you control Norlaan, it gains +3 attack, 'cause he's sorta current cult leader, yes?
Holy Acolyte: accepted
Fairy: accepted
Mubble: Accepted. I probably still won't use 'em, though. >_>
K-army Guy: accepted (Hero Hair does just as well with Letter to the Heroes, and 3 attack isn't that much.)
Evil Soldier: accepted
Skyrian Soldier: accepted, if flipping's okay to put in Clash
Lokar Guard: accepted wholeheartedly.

nekomasa Wrote:Fairy: With Fairy Forest it's not strong at all - destruction abilities don't activate on tokens, unless I'm mistaken (good chance). So unless you say otherwise I'll take that as acceptance.

Oh, no on death abilities work? Alright then, objection removed.

Kelar Citizen-Love Blues idea. It sounds perfect.

Melrak Follower-Hmm, how about... "Gains +0/+4 for every other follower"
At five that makes it a 15/24. That's about equal to a two mana creature. Seems a little long though... I'm not sure how much room I have to play with text wise.
How about "Other Followers gain +5+5" or alternatively (speed summon)? I'm really just chucking out ideas (I'll readily admit I'm not very good at this stuff.)

webrunner's given the okay to that in saying that a topdecker ability would be nice (my interpretation). Because Magical Academy was out after War, and it only topdecked spells, not card types. Maybe. My interpretation anyway, though I'm known for being able to interpret almost anything in any way I want. Actually, I'm not known for that at all, as far as I know.

I'll probably not go for the conditional entrenching on the basis that people wanted the same thing for Kelar Shadow, though I'll stick it up if one other person goes for it.

BlackFox Wrote:Kind of dependant on your opponent running a light deck.

Heck of a lot less dependant than them using bards >_>

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Currently accepted?
Lowly Slime - Destroy Lowly Slime, target slime gets +5/+5
Holy Acolyte - Target player gains 4 life
Fairy - Leave play: Gain (Nontoken only)
K-Army Guy - Destroyed: All heroes lose 3 attack
Evil Soldier - Damages a dizzy monster: That monster takes an additional 5 damage
Skyrian Soldier - Target trap entity is flipped face up
Lokar Guard - The bottommost Soldier in your deck is placed on top, lose this ability
Skeleton - If Skeleton attacks directly, put the top card of the opponent's deck into their graveyard and destroy Skeleton. (Only one objection, only on a "don't really like" basis)

New/changed idea:
Melrak Follower - End turn: Gain +1/+1 (What else can fit on one line, save for a keyword?)

Not yet rejected, sorta accepted
Gremlin - Destroyed: Opponent takes 5 damage. (Nontoken only)
Mubble - 50% chance to dizzy target monster, lose this ability (Down from D speed)
Kelar Citizen - Draw phase: If you control Elven City Kel'Sor, gain (Nobody's actually rejected this yet. And being too weak is okay - we can give him 3 later. Someone already here reject or someone new accept please.)

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Edit, for Andriex sniperposted before me: "Other Followers gain +5+5" doesn't fit. "Gains +0/+4 for every other follower" doesn't come close to fitting. And I'm not going to want to add shorthand, especially to a newbish card. Also, there's no such thing as a constant life bonus - it'd have to be triggered by an ability or phase/action, which would further limit space. Other followers gaining +5/+5 would make 5 of them about the equivalent of 3.5 mana monsters, and enough people have Melrak Follower decks already...