[Suggest] Would You Be Mine [Finished]

Nacho's reasoning (which bubbleman cited) is fine; he cited combos that he feels the card is balanced in, and just because you don't agree with their opinion on balancing for casual vs. tourney play doesn't make it not valid.

uber's comparison to Summon City Bus is somewhat incomprehensible, but it can be adequately summed up by "Burn! Burn! vs. Smash Hopes shows that 50 life is enough to cut a 5 card's cost down to 2. I don't feel giving a card away is enough to make up for the additional 2 it loses from its cost when a similar comparison is made to Summon City Bus, a spell which is similar in that it stops an attacker/defender (not to mention that WYBM does a better job of this). Also, I'm homophobic.". I think it's a terrible comparison myself, but it's not 'obviously stupid or false', so it's valid.

Now stop being a dick about this, and really, really stop making this spill over into other threads. I'm too busy studying for exams to deal with this further in any way other than a tempban.

no it's not.

I'll also throw a shitfit to end all shitfits if I get tempbanned for it.

Look, you told me that the reasoning is fine. I'm going to use that reasoning from now on, because you said it was fine. So call it spilling into other threads if you want, I'm really just voting. So neh.

Using poor (but acceptable) reasoning just to be a dickwad, however, is not fine, re: the -wad rule.

Then I'll do it just to be an all around asshole.

I don't see why it should be against the rules to use acceptable reasoning. That's some bull, and if that's what CMC has turned to then I'm separating my cards by what goes to who, returning Sol's Star Egg and jumping the CMC ship. Seriously. Fuck that shit.

(04-23-2009 08:10 PM)Bubbleman Wrote:  Uberi had a giant wall of text for reasoning out why he felt WYBM was balanced.

Length does not equal worth. Didn't this just get pointed out in the rules thread?

(04-23-2009 08:25 PM)Noodle Wrote:  My dickishness is only matched by Andriex. or POW after a few drinks.

I... I think I'm nice. I'm only mean to the people I love!

---

Ok, serious question: While I am not questioning the validity of Uber's vote (I just don't do that), I do have an honest question. Why the no change or nerf wording? Uber- in case you're misinterpreting something, any change to WYBM seems as though it would be a boost.

Just wanted to make sure this was clear for the dude, in case something was lost in translation. Y'all can go back to your craziness.

>_>

Really, to say giving a card away to your opponent is not worth a 2 reduction is absolutely false, and were it stated more sensibly then it could be argued against. Besides that, I too feel that faulty reasoning like "this absolutely different card is weaker" should not be accepted, nor should reasoning like "the fact that it costs 50 life and gives a card away doesn't excuse the fact that it is free," when clearly 50 life and losing 3 cards in card advantage (1 playing the spell, 1 card no longer in hand, 1 given to opponent) is not "free" in the least, and to call it that clearly falls under the obviously stupid rule. Look, I could say something like "getting a delicious, gourmet full course lasagna meal is not worth two dollars" and be fine in that, yeah, that's not the way I want to spend my two dollars but still be wrong in that the market, the maker of the lasagna, and the society around me clearly values that lasagna at more than two dollars. Likewise, the cards that exist now, people's mindset about the game, and other factors clearly show that discarding a card is easily "worth" roughly two mana, so giving a card to the opponent is easily "worth" more than that.

The comparison is completely illogical on at least two counts, and shouldn't be counted for those reasons, and I'm not just saying this to be a dick.

Could just be me here Ult, but I can't actually see what you're seeing in I1UBERI's post. It... just looks to me like you're inferring reasoning from the getcards he's posted. I'm not seeing anything in his words. Aside from the homophobic bit, which is about all he managed to make perfectly clear.

Does anyone actually play WYBM in any decks anymore?

No. and for a very good reason. I took apart all of my decks that used WYBM(even the non-combo ones) after the nerf.

If it'll stop Squirm's bitching, Vote: fine as is

RE:me

* Amanda Lynn avoids the pointless bitching that occurred earlier.

Vote: Boost
Re: Noodle

I have to agree with Noodle about Uber's post; it seems like it does in fact fall into the "obviously stupid" category.

(04-23-2009 09:07 PM)sXeAndriex Wrote:  

(04-23-2009 08:10 PM)Bubbleman Wrote:  Uberi had a giant wall of text for reasoning out why he felt WYBM was balanced.

Length does not equal worth. Didn't this just get pointed out in the rules thread?

(04-23-2009 08:25 PM)Noodle Wrote:  My dickishness is only matched by Andriex. or POW after a few drinks.

I... I think I'm nice. I'm only mean to the people I love!

---

Ok, serious question: While I am not questioning the validity of Uber's vote (I just don't do that), I do have an honest question. Why the no change or nerf wording? Uber- in case you're misinterpreting something, any change to WYBM seems as though it would be a boost.

Just wanted to make sure this was clear for the dude, in case something was lost in translation. Y'all can go back to your craziness.

hmm good point ill change my vote to no change no one is voting nerf anyways.. I really only voted nerf to try and sway the mindless swing vote that seem to vote off others opinions not their own.

@ ultros

hmm yeah most of that post was just babble, sorry, late nights early mornings. Let me bring up the refference square again. I can see how its not very comprehendable. I honestly would probably hardly read most of my post. Sorry for masa too. Although I thought its pretty easy to make the link without words and just the pictures but I cant let this card be that powerful. For a spelled out reasoning read the whole thing. For a simplified reasoning skip to the bottom where i made a simple easy to read comparison square.

The reasoning in the comparison:

COMPARISON POINT #1 Lets start at comparing summon city bus and wybm and how they have similar abilities

They are similar because both cards abilities:
1. spells
2. create monsters on the field for a comparable limited time.

Wybm is stronger because its ability:
1:takes an opponents attacking monster instead of just creating a monster to defend with.
2:can kill an opponents monster with an opponents monster by making an opponents monster a defender.
3:can take an opponents defending undizzy monster and make it an attacker.

COMPARISON POINT #2 Now lets compare smash hopes and summon city bus and how they have similar mana costs.

They have similar:
1.speed but not the same
2.mana costs

COMPARISON POINT #3 Just to continue the drop down and for refference. burn burn and smash hopes the same abilities

burn burn and smash hopes have similar:
1:They both destroy target effect.

COMPARISON POINT #4 Now, lets compare wybm and burn burn similar mana cost

They are similar because:
1: they both are near zero cost
2: they both cost 50 life to cast

They are different because:
1:burn burn cost 2 more d mana
2:wybm costs giving a card to the opponent. Which according to cameo is worth 2.5

COMPARISON POINT #3

------------------------------- (same ability) -------------------------------


COMPARISON POINT #4 ------------------ COMPARISON POINT #2
--- (similar mana cost) -------------------------- (similar mana cost)---

COMPARISON POINT #1

------------------------------- (similar ability) -------------------------------


EDIT: COMPARISON POINTS ARE ABOVE IF ANYTHING NEEDS CLEARED UP.

Edit2: summary: I dont know how much more clear I can make it and I dare anyone voting boost to find and post a more logical comparison square. Voting boost is just another card to abuse and I admit it is fun to abuse cards for a while.. we all did punishment abuse, or, secret asteroid base abuse.. etc.. but in the end im sure the game is better off with more cards keeping the game fun for both opponents.

Im not saying everyone voting boost wants a card to abuse.. and thats your opinion but if you are, please be more original.

If you wana change your vote, you need to make a vote.

vote: no change

re:me

edit: there are plenty of real boost that need to be done. I still do not believe in nerfing cards. Maybe summon city busy and burn burn just needed a boost to leave room for error.

edit2: no this card definetly needed a nerf. Sorry its not cool or fun anymore.. or maybe its just slightly more fun for your opponent now. "GL HF"

edit3k im done. Dont know how much more I can spell it out.

No they don't.

(04-24-2009 02:20 AM)Ignacio Wrote:  No they don't.

Thank you.. your right no they dont which means the card dosnt need a change.

@squirm

your right i probably shouldnt drink and balance. I dont agree with you though if I made it seem that wat.. I think its pretty hard to nerf zero cost monster theft. But you know.. you can be civil and stop attacking me an nacho until you get your way and if you would just take time to read my new reasoning you would find a lot of logic in it. Although probably nothing you would agree with and thats fine. In all fairness I am the one who brought up cameo as refference for wybms card giving drawback. It could be argued since you have no grounds for comparisson in your post your vote may not be acceptable as its only a comparison of combos and opinions on what was too much of a nerf. No real foundation for an argument there but I think good balancing "can" be done on opinions. Some might say the card is still strong enough to not need any combos. Once again thats a matter of opinion, person to person, but I still encourage everyone else to form their "own" opinion and not to be swayed just because someone has a great passion for expressing their opinion.

How close is being an asshole to being a dickwad?

Aren't they basically synonyms?

Thinking about it, the main thing that might be over the top with WYBM would be the card your opponent gains. ~3 for the life, ~2-3 for the 'random discard...' but your opponent gaining a card, even if it might not be useful for them, is a fair amount on top of that. I seriously think it's about right for the stupidly huge effect but I wouldn't be too opposed to changing it to a random discard with a significant life cost increase (~65-75?). A card loss stays due to flavor, choice discard is too generous and abusable, and 50 life is too little to cover the rest.

Actually, I think he was first calling out on yours and Nacho's reasoning, and then attacked the system, not you two specifically. His problem wasn't with you (so much), but with the 'rules'.

Uber:

Cameo takes a card, not gives one. Just like ToK is not a valid proof of the worth of discarding, Cameo is not a valid proof of the worth of cardgiving. Also, Cameo takes from the deck, not the hand. Data Hack is the one that takes from the hand, and if this comparison is valid (I believe both it and the cameo comparison are not valid) it shows that losing a card from your hand to give to the opponent is worth much, much more than 2.5

Second, you're still comparing apples to oranges and saying apples are better because more people buy them. WYBM is not better than summon city bus. Many decks don't use anything larger than a Dragon Whelp, in which case summon city bus will be getting you a bigger monster. Many decks don't use anything with more attack than life or attack equal to life, in which case WYBM just becomes a damage two monsters spell whereas summon city bus can work as outright removal. Many decks just don't use monsters (The Dark Quadrant), or only uses them as small combo pieces (Dr. Amp). What good is WYBM there? I'd rather just summon a city bus to the face.

You show that they have a similar overlapping purpose, but you don't show that one is always stronger at that purpose, you're just showing that if the circumstances are right (if the opponent is attacking with two monsters and at least one is stronger than summon city bus and they're both able to kill eachother) then WYBM is stronger. Okay. If the opponent is using nothing but Giant X's then my Arc Lightning is way stronger than reclamation. If my opponent is using nothing but Dark Wasps then I'd much rather have Stone Golem than Kelar Sage. This doesn't make arc lightning better than reclam, and doesn't make Kelar Sage better than Stone Golem, it makes them usable different ways in different situations, the same way that summon city bus is.