Pokémon

About the uber list, why exactly is wobuffet on there? Outside of the high hp, he looks pretty weak. More so when compared to the other ubers on that list.

Three reasons: his ability (shadow tag) prevents switching, One of his moves (encore) makes the opponent repeatedly use the same attack for 5-8 turns, and his high HP and counter/mirror coat means he will take large damage from the move that he encored and now knows you will have no choice to use for the next 5-8 turns (yeah, you're not lasting that long) and will attack back for double the damage. And even using a status move or a stat-upping move won't help you, since he'll switch to someone else and that someone else gets a free turn of set-up as you have to switch out, or gets a free attack on the switch-in.

It's really, really strong, and not at all easy to deal with.

Did they remove the problem if you get two of them against each other? I think they did, but I don't remember...

Yeah, they did. Pokémon with the shadow tag ability can now switch out of shadow tag.

This doesn't apply to Arena Trap or Magnet Pull, though, so Dugtrio still traps other Dugtrio and Magnezone still trap other Magnezone, and Porygon-2 can still trace the abilities and trap both.

(05-10-2009 11:34 PM)Kennisiou Wrote:  ...

Swtiching banned? Please, also ban thinking, and knowing how to play the goddamn game. Nonono. I'm sorry, you're right. If you have a Taunting, Dragon Dancing Gyarados out and I have a Skarmory, I shouldn't be allowed to switch. Not at all. You should be allowed to set up a full six dragon dances and then kill my entire goddamn team. Fuck, man. Just because you're used to playing stupid computer opponents doesn't mean you should force everyone to play like the stupid computers. Limited switching is just as bad and just as stupid.

Banning legends and wobuffet and "pseudo legends" (I assume this means Salamence, Garchomp, Metagross, Tyranitar and [lol] Dragonite, right?) is... No, really, even that's downright dumb. I linked to the list of uber pokémon. That's not bullshit. That is the list of pokémon that overpower other pokémon. Notice the absence of, you know, Articuno (sucks) Heatran (awesome, but still killable by a wide range of things), Moltres (dies to rock attacks. Stealth rock says hi!) and Dragonite (did you know he's actually worse than Gyarados? For anything Dragonite can do you can name another pokémon that does it and does it better). Really. I linked a perfectly fine banlist, don't write it off as bullshit. If you want to ban legends/events because they're hard to get ahold of then I understand (and will still kill everyone with bullet punch scizor because they won't have Zapdos and likely won't have Rotom appliance forms. Just figured I'd give fair warning).

This is probably why he is banning those things, because people like you, to him, make the game boring and not something he wants to be part of. He doesn't care about Smogon or their list, or who is better than who, he probably just wants people who played the game, and caught Pokemon because they wanted to use them and not because they are a formula to win, to have a tournament for fun.

I'm guessing here.

Because not switching is totally fun? Because I'll tell you something: it isn't. It takes any depth and strategy out of the combat.

I mean, take it this way. You play CMC. I hold a tournament that bans monsters attacking other monsters because "I'm used to bad players who don't do that." You can enter, but is it a serious CMC tourney? No, it isn't.

(05-11-2009 01:26 AM)Drifloon Wrote:  He probably just wants people who played the game, and caught Pokemon because they wanted to use them and not because they are a formula to win, to have a tournament for fun.

I'm guessing here.

This.

Seriously, people talking competitive Pokemon is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. It is also the reason that I only play Pokemon with people who I know won't be min/maxing pricks about it.

I submit better rules for this tournament:

Ban every single Pokemon except Weedle and Caterpie. A tournament of nothing but Weedles and Caterpies. I think it'd be more fun than arguing about Pokemon statistics.

See, it's funny that you guys are talking about a tournament and then talking about making it non-competitive. Do you understand the inherent paradox there?

(05-11-2009 01:41 AM)Kennisiou Wrote:  See, it's funny that you guys are talking about a tournament and then talking about making it non-competitive. Do you understand the inherent paradox there?

Game [geym] Noun -
-An amusement or pastime
-Fun; Sport of any kind; joke

Kenn, it's a damn game. At our school, a group of friends and I have a Hungry Hungry Hippo's Tournament. None of us go about looking at whether or not we should ban the green hippo because he's too good at picking up balls. You can play a tournament and still focus on primarily having fun. Now, if your version of fun is running every single other player into the ground with your team of rockin' Pokemon, go at it. Just don't be surprised when a lot of people really want to play with you.

NOLDER Wrote:anyone feel like a small pokemon tournament to celebrate gen2 remakes?

Small tournament as a celebration sounds a whole lot to me like "Anyone want to have a little fun and play a few rounds of Pokemon?" That's just me though I guess.

(05-11-2009 01:26 AM)Drifloon Wrote:  

(05-10-2009 11:34 PM)Kennisiou Wrote:  ...

Swtiching banned? Please, also ban thinking, and knowing how to play the goddamn game. Nonono. I'm sorry, you're right. If you have a Taunting, Dragon Dancing Gyarados out and I have a Skarmory, I shouldn't be allowed to switch. Not at all. You should be allowed to set up a full six dragon dances and then kill my entire goddamn team. Fuck, man. Just because you're used to playing stupid computer opponents doesn't mean you should force everyone to play like the stupid computers. Limited switching is just as bad and just as stupid.

Banning legends and wobuffet and "pseudo legends" (I assume this means Salamence, Garchomp, Metagross, Tyranitar and [lol] Dragonite, right?) is... No, really, even that's downright dumb. I linked to the list of uber pokémon. That's not bullshit. That is the list of pokémon that overpower other pokémon. Notice the absence of, you know, Articuno (sucks) Heatran (awesome, but still killable by a wide range of things), Moltres (dies to rock attacks. Stealth rock says hi!) and Dragonite (did you know he's actually worse than Gyarados? For anything Dragonite can do you can name another pokémon that does it and does it better). Really. I linked a perfectly fine banlist, don't write it off as bullshit. If you want to ban legends/events because they're hard to get ahold of then I understand (and will still kill everyone with bullet punch scizor because they won't have Zapdos and likely won't have Rotom appliance forms. Just figured I'd give fair warning).

This is probably why he is banning those things, because people like you, to him, make the game boring and not something he wants to be part of. He doesn't care about Smogon or their list, or who is better than who, he probably just wants people who played the game, and caught Pokemon because they wanted to use them and not because they are a formula to win, to have a tournament for fun.

I'm guessing here.

I'm sorry, Kenn's right here. Switching's part of the game as much as attacking. That's like playing Counterstrike, but telling people they can't run or jump, or playing SSBM and saying they can't use the shield.

Hell, it's probably worse. Switching to a counter with Whirlwind/Roar is the only way to stop quite a few otherwise broken setups. If I can't switch my special sweeper for an physical one when my opponent plays Snorelax, I lose the entire match.

See, personally, my idea of fun is that kind of thing (one guy running every single player into the ground) not happening. And the rules I'm suggesting? Notice how I'm pointing out abuses for people not following them, and how un-fun people who don't follow the rules are? They're there to make the game harder to abuse. Because I hate staring down the one dick who realized there's no sleep clause and uses a choice-scarfed breloom to put everything on my team to sleep. I hate playing the one guy who decided to abuse the "no switching" rule by using loads of taunting set-up sweepers. I hate playing the guy who decided to abuse ban-list rules by using the few pokémon that are unhandleable because people used an expirimental and bad banned list. I'm suggesting rules that make shit fun. I'm not "trying to ban the green hippo because he's too good," I'm trying to ban someone from bringing a vacuum painted like a hippo and playing with that (okay, so that would, in fact, actually be very fun to play and is a bad example, but you get my point).

And don't act like there won't be at least one guy doing this, because there will. We've got at least one guy hacking, so he can do whatever he wants, and people here are smart. They see "unmissable sleep" they see "any number of guys asleep" and they see "choice scarf, increases speed but locks into one move" and put one and one and one together to make a fucking annoying match that's just no fun.

The tier rules preserve competition and keep things fair. Unbalanced games aren't fun, as exemplified by such staples of fun games such as "poker where that one guy always is given a royal flush."

This is about levelling the playing field and preventing un-fun abuse, not about "hey guise let me rape you my favorite way." My wi-fi team sucks and that's no lie. I'm going to probably be playing with my terrible wi-fi team, maybe some changes to make it slightly less terrible, but it's still got imperfect IV's, bad natures and spreads, and all of that other shit that makes me cringe.

Edit: this is in response to Mage, not Nacho.

(05-11-2009 01:34 AM)Kennisiou Wrote:  Because not switching is totally fun? Because I'll tell you something: it isn't. It takes any depth and strategy out of the combat.

I mean, take it this way. You play CMC. I hold a tournament that bans monsters attacking other monsters because "I'm used to bad players who don't do that." You can enter, but is it a serious CMC tourney? No, it isn't.

Oh I'm sorry. I forgot that if you aren't taking something seriously, then no one else can. If Nolder make a tourny with certain rules, and people don't mind them, then you're just SOL. Start your own if it's that big of a problem, and hell, while you're at it, go start it at Smogon since that seems to be the crowed you are looking for anyway.

NOLDER Wrote:anyone feel like a small pokemon tournament to celebrate gen2 remakes?

Small tournament as a celebration sounds a whole lot to me like "Anyone want to have a little fun and play a few rounds of Pokemon?" That's just me though I guess.
Pretty much.

(05-11-2009 01:53 AM)Ignacio Wrote:  I'm sorry, Kenn's right here. Switching's part of the game as much as attacking. That's like playing Counterstrike, but telling people they can't run or jump, or playing SSBM and saying they can't use the shield.

Hell, it's probably worse. Switching to a counter with Whirlwind/Roar is the only way to stop quite a few otherwise broken setups. If I can't switch my special sweeper for an physical one when my opponent plays Snorelax, I lose the entire match.

That's nice and dandy for people that care? I mean really, again, Nolder doesn't care about making a Smogon based Tourny, again, assuming here, but I don't know. I thought that was obvious.

====
And this is way different than CMC because we are on CMC ground. If he was really looking for competition, I don't think he'd post about it here.

(05-10-2009 11:34 PM)Kennisiou Wrote:  For anything Dragonite can do you can name another pokémon that does it and does it better

HM slave. 1-7 on a non-legend? Yays.

(05-11-2009 01:36 AM)MageofSpades Wrote:  Ban every single Pokemon except WeedleKakuna and CaterpieMetapod.

Fixed.

(05-11-2009 01:41 AM)Kennisiou Wrote:  See, it's funny that you guys are talking about a tournament and then talking about making it non-competitive. Do you understand the inherent paradox there?

There isn't an "inherent paradox", there are conflicting opinions of which goals are important to meet through utilization of this system of play.

Kennisiou Wrote:This is about levelling the playing field and preventing un-fun abuse, not about "hey guise let me rape you my favorite way."

I'm going to end this right here and say, no. That's not what this is about. This is about differing goals and differing opinions on which goals take president. No one is wrong and there is no wrong way to do things, so how about you (all?) consider that before you continue this idiotic "you're playing pokemon wrong!" crap.

I appreciate your point and, honestly here, completely agree with your opinion, but it might be considering that the problem here isn't your opinion but the way you're acting.

---

Newsflash: You're all arguing about pokemon.

...before you say anything, I only argued about that "inherent paradox stuff". That's... totally better >.>

(05-11-2009 02:01 AM)Kennisiou Wrote:  See, personally, my idea of fun is that kind of thing (one guy running every single player into the ground) not happening. And the rules I'm suggesting? Notice how I'm pointing out abuses for people not following them, and how un-fun people who don't follow the rules are? They're there to make the game harder to abuse. Because I hate staring down the one dick who realized there's no sleep clause and uses a choice-scarfed breloom to put everything on my team to sleep. I hate playing the one guy who decided to abuse the "no switching" rule by using loads of taunting set-up sweepers. I hate playing the guy who decided to abuse ban-list rules by using the few pokémon that are unhandleable because people used an expirimental and bad banned list. I'm suggesting rules that make shit fun. I'm not "trying to ban the green hippo because he's too good," I'm trying to ban someone from bringing a vacuum painted like a hippo and playing with that (okay, so that would, in fact, actually be very fun to play and is a bad example, but you get my point).

And don't act like there won't be at least one guy doing this, because there will. We've got at least one guy hacking, so he can do whatever he wants, and people here are smart. They see "unmissable sleep" they see "any number of guys asleep" and they see "choice scarf, increases speed but locks into one move" and put one and one and one together to make a fucking annoying match that's just no fun.

The tier rules preserve competition and keep things fair. Unbalanced games aren't fun, as exemplified by such staples of fun games such as "poker where that one guy always is given a royal flush."

This is about levelling the playing field and preventing un-fun abuse, not about "hey guise let me rape you my favorite way." My wi-fi team sucks and that's no lie. I'm going to probably be playing with my terrible wi-fi team, maybe some changes to make it slightly less terrible, but it's still got imperfect IV's, bad natures and spreads, and all of that other shit that makes me cringe.

Edit: this is in response to Mage, not Nacho.

I suppose I misunderstood as to what you were arguing then (I don't speak competitive Pokemon, and I still think this entire argument is ridiculous and people taking the game way too seriously).

Banning switching, if that's as simple as swapping Pokemon in and out mid fight and not some crazy term, does seem a bit excessive, but one way or another, its his tournament, and he can run it how he wants. You don't want to play, then don't, let him have his fun. Run your own tournament with your own rules if you want, god knows there are enough Pokemon and Pokemon players to go around.

Banning Pokemon also seems a bit off though, at least to me if you're all going to be level 100 or whatever anyway.

One way or another, it seems to come down to the people you're playing with. If the people you're playing with are exploiting pricks, don't play with them.

Again, I'm going to step out of this thread now, since I lack the comprehensive pokemon knowledge of every intricacies of move lists and stats and crap. This is your guys turf, I just felt the need to step in because it seemed like people were starting to foam at the mouth over pixels on a DS.

One of these days, though, I'm totally going to run a tournament that's nothing but first-evolution Bird pokemon and nothing else. No item holding, no item use, nothing other than bird on bird bloodletting action. Just to be a dick.

(05-11-2009 02:17 AM)sXeAndriex Wrote:  ...before you say anything, I only argued about that "inherent paradox stuff". That's... totally better >.>

That HM Slave sounded different. o.<

Nonono, HM-slave is a cool, in-game pokénerd term, not one of those faggy competitive pokénerd terms. Waaaaay different.

And, yeah, I do see your points Andriex and Mage (but not Drifloon, you're a moron still). The thing I'm trying to do is introduce rules that have been shown to work in producing competitive and fun environments by banning things that lead to un-fun pokérape situations. Looking at the tier list, there are probably ways I could adapt it to make it even easier to ban those situations (like moving a few legendary OU threats that are good, but not necessary to hold other OU non-legendary threats in place, into Uber), but the point is those changes would only facilitate people who don't have legend access, it wouldn't make the game more balanced, because you really can make a good team with no real legends in it that stands a chance (well, you can if you have rotom appliance access, otherwise Scizor is amazingly powerful and you lose the two best ways to stop him) against all of the crazy competitive teams out there.

Really, though, I'm holding fast on OHKO moves, evasion moves, sleep clause, and switching. Switching because, as Nacho said, switching is a part of the game. Banning it is like (to use the funnier hungry hungry hippos analogy) banning people from hitting the things that push the balls out so the hippos can eat them. It... It doesn't work. They included it when making the game for a reason: it keeps things balanced very, very well and is one of the mechanisms that drives the game when you're playing it between two people. The other ones because, for reasons previously stated, they're all very abusable ways to shut down teams that are just no fun to play against, and also aren't the kind of things where everyone can just use them (for example, no sleep tourney games that get competitive often come down to choice scarf breloom speed-tie coinflips. It turns into a coin flipping tournament. OHKO moves and evasion moves work the same way, with it all coming down to who gets lucky enough to hit with the OHKO move or to hit through the massive evasion first).

Just throwing it out there, the rules NOLDER's thrown out there (no legendaries, no switching) are actually pretty close to CMC's general tourney rules (no donation/trophy/event cards, no deck changing). Banning competitive pokémon and allowing the unobtainables might make more sense, but then banning the most powerful cards and allowing the unobtainables might make more sense too. We have these terrible rules ingrained into us from years of Fall and its imitators, so it's only natural to want to apply these to Pokémon


But yeah, I'm claiming the eeveelution team.

Thing is, say all of the game's... god, what's some absolutely essential piece to CMC... Ugh... Okay, say all of the game's counterspells, spell immune monsters, and decoying stuff is only voucher available. All it takes is one abusive spell deck that nobody can answer and they automatically win. I keep saying this, but I'll say it again: literally everything that can handle Scizor is a legend (save Rotom-A, who you can only use if you have platinum. No, you can't trade him to diamond/pearl, he turns to normal Rotom if that happens). There are a few legends that are necessary for game balance, unless you want to ban a large (and I do mean large) number of non-legends (another example, there are many threats that are held in check mostly by Celebi and Jirachi). I get that the CMC rules exist to level the playing field by keeping people playing from the same cardpools, but at the same time within those cardpools exist all of the answers to the stuff that's still within the cardpool. Legend-banning means you ban the means of answering many non-legends, and that's not good. In CMC, I'd say the rule isn't terrible. I mean, name one donation that people absolutely must use to keep a non-donation card from beating them.

first of all, kenn watch who you call a moron. i don't want that kind of shit in this thread. especially not when it's directed at one of my friends. second of all lets all stop the bickering. i think i have a solution to all of this but you'll have to wait until tomorrow for details. for now lets just relax and find out who's interested in playing at all.

If the answer to Scizor is a whole bunch of legendaries, then the simple solution is to ban Scizor.

Come up with a list of what's uber within a non-legendary environment if you want a more convincing stance Kenn