The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter

I don't have the mental capacity to be reading through all of this thread, but I'd like to throw in my two cents on a couple of things I've seen:

Marcus - agree - This card would be more useful if it were cheaper. As it stands, there's so many better alternatives. Hey, it worked for Brig Aliens.
War Cherry - disagree - When compared next to creatures such as Crossroad (5 less attack for 15 more life, or is it 2 for 18? I forget.) or Parade Robot (1 maintenance), she doesn't seem all that fair - but she does have the setback of conflicting with Diane, which can prove to be a setback in many Hero decks. For those that would actually use the "she's a hero" argument, I direct you to "Letter to the Heroes" and "Southcorp Building". Take a hike with that debate.
Magishield - disagree - It consumes an effect slot. It's easily countered. It costs 8 to begin with. If someone can pull it off and not get it destroyed by effect D, let them keep it one turn longer for f***'s sake.
Shooting Star - unsure - While it would be intriguing to have some failure insurance, I think that light effect D already has enough support with Puzzle Solve.
Slime Valley - disagree - Absolutely not. I feel enough was done to nerf this card when the multiple valley restriction was placed. Gloops are annoying - but nothing more than that.
Battery of Souls - agree - if nothing else, it would prevent the extended abuse of it on Boardroom Avengers (which I'm surprised to find nobody has brought up yet).
Sporkman - agree - Dragon was finally balanced, and now Sporkman has become the new Dragon.
Bank Robber - agree - This card looks pathetic as it stands... it needs something, and that change fits.
Gatemaster - agree - It's not a severe change. It even fits.

Sporkman's been nerfed already... >_>

Why Sneaking:Grey? Shadey's grey, he caught them, he ended up letting them go when he had more important matters, but he still caught them. Sneaking:Light or Dark or something.

Gatemaster: eh, doesn't change my One-Sided Mirror deck at all, so sure, why not.

So? Sneaking grey != entrenching grey. Nothing stops shadey from directly attacking the bank robbers, taking minimal damage (3) and killing them outright with almost any version of Shadey.

Here's an idea I've yet to see (granted I don't read the balance forums much): instead of changing the Battery of Souls damage per use, couldn't we just make it E speed and triple it's cost? My reference for this is Time Waster which provides a similar function at a summoning cost of 555.

At least that way monster D spells can kill without Battery of Souls just eating them up every time. It would also mean that you can't bring it out on the second turn.

Otherwise a thought that just occured to me: Destroy monster, gain in counter = 1/3 monster's life (worth a little bit more mana than it is now actually).

Whoa, I'm calling for a BoS nerf, you're calling for a BoS genocide.

The monster destruction idea has come up before, and wasn't really liked, plus it's a big change.
I'd like to see it come down a speed or two, but I think that without its speed it just wouldn't be the same card.

And with regards to the comparison between Crossroad and Cherry (Cherry having -5/+15), that Crossroad is also a "hero". And putting a hoser card (Letter, Southcorp) into a deck is a risk, whereas synergies can be planned for and guaranteed.

----- Edit:
I somehow missed adding these a couple of pages ago. I'll do so now.

Fairy Peacekeeper - Reduce ability cost from 8 to 7.
Skeletal Warrior - Any suggestions on a statboost, re comparisons to Media Player Ray?
Tome of Protection - Reduce cost to 6 and sac to 7.

For Skeleton Warrior, I'll post all the comparable dark monsters here for easier reference for debate:

5
8
Winged Demon (demon)
50/35

5
5 3
K-Golem (golem)
50/40

5
6
Garshask (unique lacky)
55/35

5
6
Skeletal Warrior (skeleton)
55/30

5
7
Media Player Ray (robot)
56/33

So we have 5 monsters which we can only vary by sac, attack, and life (and to some degree type). On that point, I'm pretty sure this debate about the 5 beatsticks will just go on unless one of the cards is given an ability. Here are a few examples of 5 monsters with abilities:

5
2
Skeletal Soldier (skeleton)
Second Life: 15 life
45/20

5
6
Shadow Stalker (horror)
Destroy Shadow Stalker and add Shadow Stalker's life+attack to target monster (E)
35/35

5
Zero
Whizrom (unique mage)
Draw phase: Whizrom takes 10 damage and loses 5 attack points
65/50

5
7
Brig Aliens (alien)
Sneaking Dark
L damage: 125%
45/45

5
6
Dark Wasp (insect)
Ability Immune
45/35

5
7
Skeletal Chimera (skeleton horror)
Skeletal Chimera's minimum attack is the number of cards in your graveyard times four
0/35

5
5
Lab Experiment (experiment)
When Lab Experiment is put into play, its attack and life are set randomly from 15 to 75
1/1

5
6
Olaf the Unspeakable (unique ogre)
If Aka is in play, Olaf has 20 extra attack points
47/45

5
7
Southcorp Swat (soldier)
Southcorp Swat takes half damage on defence
15/60

The list is a bit more lengthy than I had intended (I didn't know there were so many 5 monsters) but you get the idea (or hopefully got a few from reading it).

Fairy Peacekeeper: Sure, puts ability on par with The Sealing
Tome of Protection: Sure, don't see that or Agression (correctly spelled "Aggression" if anyone wants to report it) played ever.

Firstly, comparison to the vanilla 5 monsters, is that Skeletal Warrior has stats equal to Winged Demon (assuming 1atk=1life), and worse stats than all of the rest. Every other vanilla 5 monster has superior sac value as well, except for Garshask who has consensus for further boosting already.

I'd also like to point out that Olaf the Unspeakable, without its ability, has better total stats than any of the vanilla 5 monsters. But ontop of that, it synergies with Aka: an aready powerful creature (ie she has her own balance threads too!), for an extra 20 attack points on top of that, for no apparent cost bar uniqueness. I'd like to say that he needs a nerf of some sort - a few attack points, life points, weaker (+15/0) synergy, or reduced sac.

On the notice of those creatures, I'd like to vote for a Whizrom boost. Without an undizzier, he becomes a 60/40 creature... for one turn. I mean, I'd much rather toss out a Phantom Galgy than deal with Whizrom kaputzing... for a cheaper (NOT self-destructive) cost. Perhaps maybe have Whizrom only lose 5 or 8 life at a time? Or maybe just not lose attack? (He definitely doesn't fit in with Miasma Factory, which nerfs him to hell, despite being the same color.)

Again probably mentioned in another thread but I'll throw in my 2 cents while were on the subject of 5 monsters.

I think Skeletal Chimera's ability should be changed to +8 and apply only for monsters in the graveyard; not effects or spells. No real strong argument here other than making a bit more sense and it getting rid of effect sacing to gain 20 attack in one round. Also might encourage people to try making effective 1 mana cost monster decks.

Surely you mean Skel Chimera?

Updated, I'm horrible with names.

Actually, as is, Skeletal Chimeras are most often used in NPC cycling decks. And I've seen some that are very effective. Just try not to think of the Chimera as an undead mass of bones, but maybe more like an undead Katamari.

Also, I think that Whomper has a very good point about Whizrom. With an undizzier it is strong for two turns, otherwise just one turn, before it becomes weaker than the rest of the 5 monsters. And having no sac value (compared to the huge sac profits on the others) and being unique are further disadvantages. Changing it to -5/-8 per turn, -4/-8 per turn or -5/-5 per turn would make it more balanced I believe.

But do we have any suggestions for Skeletal Warrior? It could be balanced by either a few stat points or an extra sac, but in making it balanced it also becomes closer to being identical to the rest of them.Some kind of minor ability or skeleton synergy might be appropriate, but unfortunately it changes what the card essentially is.

Whizrom: Basically, in a deck without a theme (no specific defence like trenches, holojack, etc.) any monster with life ~ 35 is probably going to last about 3-5 turns (each player's turn, not a round). After 5 turns with the -5/-5, Whizrom will be 50/35 which is equal to a Demon. So I vote for the -5/-8 change.

Skeleton: That was basically my point about changing just attack/life/sac on Skeletal Warrior making it look like the rest. I was personally thinking it could have 1 of 2 abilities:
Slight Nerf with Gloopzilla like ability for Skeletons (the 1 monster no one really uses).
Second Life so long as each time it is returned to hand a random skeleton in your hand is destroyed/obliterated.

Otherwise, comparing Skeleton 18/4 with Gremlin 17/6 and K-Guy 19/3, give it 4 more life to put it between Demon and Media Player Ray and add 1 sac.

Ultimately I feel there should be a couple more cards directed to skeleton synergy. As it stands, skeletons are just a type without support - if this were to change, Skeletal Warrior might make more sense.

masamunemaniac Wrote:but maybe more like an undead Katamari.

Just felt that should be repeated.

Maybe all other skeletons out get +5/+0?
Very random, I know, but I think we all agree skeletons could use a racial bonus. This would aid most skels while not allowing the warlock to get any more shots in.
Or maybe just +1/+1 for every other skeleton in play.

How about reducing its attack by 5, and just saying "All skeletons get +5/0". It's the same thing, but a little simpler.
Or, perhaps a cost to give target skeleton +5/-1 until the end of the round?

Alternatively, these boosts could come from another source; a skeleton in an upcoming expansion maybe?

We've got Mechanics (Robotics oriented) and Hammer (Unglued-esque) expansions coming up, so I don't think they'll fit into either of those.

The only hope is for webrunner to release a new expansion on us without any prior warning, ninja-style... it would be nice to see a couple of mini-expansions... a mini one with lots of new cards for our existing but unsynergied creature types, and another one for all the new webcomic stuff.

Well, the other hope is that webrunner decides to weave abilities into some of the vanilla monsters... maybe around the same time we get the 1mana critters rebalanced.

EDIT: Because a general rule of balance is that we're not allowed to try and change what a card does, ie we can only change a vanilla beatstick to slightly different variation of vanilla beatstick.

Quote:

Quote:masamunemaniac Wrote:

but maybe more like an undead Katamari.

Just felt that should be repeated.

Bah! Beat me to it. Great line though...

And you know, I remember a time when Whizrom was thought to be too powerful. How times change...(and I'm pretty sure he got nerfed, but that's beside the point).

Out of curiousity, why is Karashi(war) not up for debate?

Probably for the same reason Wizard (War) isn't: it's already been debated on a seperate thread.