The Balance Saga: The Fall '05 Chapter

Actually, most of these balances are directly pulled from other threads.

There just weren't any real calls to change them at the times that I was actively managing this thread. If you so desire, bring up some suggestions (probably start in another new thread first) until we can get something to add to here.

I think a nice place to start for Karashi would be to say either discard to opponent's grave, or discard at random. I don't know if you can easily fix Wizad, or whether he is broken to begin with.

Now go and make the first strike! When the time is right, I shall sweep in for the kill =D

Skelewarrior: I vote for 60/25.  Same stat points, overall, but a somewhat more valuable and unique distribution, I think.

Whizrom: I vote for just giving him +0/+6.  That gives him another turn of existence and allows him to actually potentially do something even if he is T-mancied on his first attack.

Sporkman: Don't really think he needs further nerfing.  High sac is kind of his schtick.  His stats are kind of mediocre for the cost, and if you drop his sac to 3/3, that won't be anything special, either.

Bank Robber: Fine with sneaking of some sort.  Heck, invisible attack probably wouldn't break it.

Gatemaster: Okay with scientist.

Assistant to Abrasis: I originally voted, instead of the balance he got, to make him cost with a 2 sac.  I still think that's a better balance than the one that won out.

Karashi: Fine with discard to opponent's grave.  Not fine with anything harsher.

War Wizard: Actually haven't seen him around much.  Methinks he's probably fine considering how expensive he is, though, admittedly, Starship Drive might be problematic in combo.

Fairy Peacekeeper: Fine (edit/clarification: fine with proposed change).

Tome(s): I'd just as soon get rid of the maintenance instead (on both).  Ivory Library is more controllable and can be used as a decking agent, but isn't considered overpowered by any stretch of the imagination.  I think Tomes at 8/9 without maintenance would be fine, or maybe drop the sac a bit, perhaps to 7.

At Masamunemaniac's request (sorta) I'm only going to suggest a cost change to Wizard (WotW). If it becomes strongly debated, I'll make a new thread.

Add 3 to his cost. Even with gloops he ends up dealing 120 direct damage before he dies.

Skeletal Warrior - Good idea Tamdrik. Change stats to 60/25.
Whizrom - If the suggestion of -5/-8 per turn doesn't get consensus, I'll try for the +0/+6 instead.
Sporkman - Using our traditional multicolour cost forumula, he costs (1*2)+(0.67*2) mana, ie 3.33 mono equivalent. Just considering his hero type and uniqueness, we can compare him to 3 (63 statpoints)and 4 Karn (80 statpoints). At 70 statpoints, Sporkman is slightly better value than Karn using a curve linear between 3 and 4 mana, and the same value as Karn using a curve linear between 0 and 3 mana. At the moment, he has a sac profit of (using multicolour formula) of (1*2)+(0.67*1) mana, ie 2.67 mono equivalent, which is far superior to those of Karn (1 mana). Even after my suggestion of dropping sac to 33, he's still strictly better. And then, this is before we consider Mana Furnace potential, where he's 2 above a Dark Ritual at the moment. In my opinion, he needs the sac reduction badly.

And out of time for now.

masamunemaniac Wrote:Sporkman - Using our traditional multicolour cost forumula, he costs (1*2)+(0.67*2) mana, ie 3.33 mono equivalent. Just considering his hero type and uniqueness, we can compare him to 3 (63 statpoints)and 4 Karn (80 statpoints). At 70 statpoints, Sporkman is slightly better  value than Karn using a curve linear between 3 and 4 mana, and the same value as Karn using a curve linear between 0 and 3 mana. At the moment, he has a sac profit of (using multicolour formula) of (1*2)+(0.67*1) mana, ie 2.67 mono equivalent, which is far superior to those of Karn (1 mana). Even after my suggestion of dropping sac to 33, he's still strictly better. And then, this is before we consider Mana Furnace potential, where he's 2 above a Dark Ritual at the moment. In my opinion, he needs the sac reduction badly.

Heh... "traditional multicolour cost formula".  I never thought that idea I tossed out in a balance discussion would ever be referred to as such. :)  

Anyway, if you look at Dragon, who seems to have achieved a general sense of balance, Sporkman's stats are pretty comparable, when you take into account the extra mana and that attack tends to be slightly more valuable than life, breakpoints aside.  Dragon sacs for +3 mana, and so does Spork.  If you filter it through the magic monocolorization formula, Dragon gains +2 mono and Spork gains +2.67 mono.  If we're talking about Mana Furnace, which seems to be the big issue, it's back to +3 either way (Spork gains a relative +1 w/Sac Site, but Dragon only requires 3 mana initial investment).  This doesn't scream "must nerf again" to me.

Re: Dark Ritual, actually, he's +2 without the Sac Site, but that's fine with me.  It requires a two-card combo and can't be launched on turn two (plus Dark Ritual isn't exactly overpowered).  Add Sac Site and you gain another +3, but again, you're adding another card and further delaying when the combo can be unleashed.

Well, we've all been using that multicolour formula for quite a while now(X + 2/3Y + 1/3Z for those wondering), in quite a few balances. Seeing as you gave birth to it, perhaps you should name it?

Also, while he gains 2 above a Dark Ritual, he doesn't have the 2 cost of the Dark Ritual, putting him at a net total of 4 above it through use of Mana Furnace. Plus he gets the opportunity for direct attacking or damaging creatures - if he's out early it's unlikely that anything can one-hit him either.

Advantages over Dragon (in a Furnace scenario) is that with life-oriented stats he's more likely to be able to survive to be furnaced, which will likely be more important than attack. And in a primarily Dark deck, he's more easily splashable (imo). Even considering a non-furnace scenario, on comparison to Dragon, Sporkman gains two mana profit for light whereas Dragon only gains one mana profit for grey, making his sac more useful when only the primary colour needs to be consider (ie there's little splash in the deck). Dragon also lacks any synergy.

Something I just noticed one game:
9
10
Ardam (Clash)
3 (D)
25/50

10
11
Ardam (WotW)
4 (C )
35/60

Should a 1 mana difference give 10+/10+ and a speed boost (which I'll argue against the summoning price increase in that much better summons are possible)?

Along the same lines:
5
6
Ardam (Clash)
target monster takes 20 damage (D)
15/45

6
7
Diane (Clash)
target monster takes 20 damage (E)
30/45

5
6
Karashi (WotW)
Discard a card: target monster takes 40 damage (B )
30/45

Again, from Ardam to Diane we have 15+/0+ for 1 mana, and with Karashi we have it for 0 mana. I know Karashi has already been addressed but I think we should drop her attack by at least 10 and Diane's by 5; minimum.

EDIT
Another thing I noticed, though this one may just be me:
5
6
Eikre (unique Clash)
50% against all colors
25/40 (with resistences [100\50 = 2 * 40 = 80])

6
7
Shielded Paladin (Prince)
75% against all colors
Cannot be targeted by abilities
28/60 (with resistences [100\75 = 1.33 * 60 = 80])

Comparatively, Shielded Paladin is non-unique, has 3 more attack, and ability immune for 1 extra . It just seems to me it could do with a 5-10 life drop. Again could just be me.

I agree the summoners atk/life balance could use a tweak, but I don't think Diane needs a change as is. Maybe raise sniper ardams attack by +5, and Nerf Karashi's attack a bit.

Leave the paladin alone.

The +10/+10 between Ardams isn't unprecedented (see Stone/Winged Golems), and as ability creatures, their stats are somewhat less important (particularly attack). That also applies to Ardam/Diane. There's another 5/6 pair that have a similar stat discrepancy: Mystic Bird and Angelic Warrior (1 mana, 15 life).

As to Eikre/Paladin, the difference between Melrak Axeman and Dark Wasp seems comparable. Again, they're fine.

I've just gone through the entire thread, doing a count for each of the unconsented changes. I'm pro each of the changes in question. A few might be off, where someone suggests an alternative boost/nerf but doesn't comment on the proposed one, I've counted it as pro.

Battery of Souls 7 Yay 3 Nay (May be off due to proposal changes, so not moved)
Change ability from dealing 10 damage to dealing 12 damage.
Cherry (War) 7 Yay 3 Nay (Moved to consented)
Decrease stats from 60/80 to 60/77.
Magishield - 6 Yay 5 Nay
Change from a 5 turn counter to a 4 turn counter.
Red Sprite/Green Sprite 3 Yay 0 Nay (Moved to consented)
Lower cost to 4, add 2 activation to merge ability.
Slime Valley 6 Yay 7 Nay (Suggestion removed)
Change cost to 4. Keep sac value at 5.
Sporkman 2 Yay 1 Nay
Reduce sac to 33
Fairy Peacekeeper 3 Yay 1 Nay
Reduce ability cost from 8 to 7.
Skeletal Warrior 7 Yay 0 Nay (Moved to consented)
Change stats from 55/30 to 60/25.
Tome of Protection 4 Yay 0 Nay (Moved to consented)
Reduce cost to 6 and sac to 7.
Whizrom 4 Yay 0 Nay (Moved to consented)
Boost to 65/55.

---

I've also newly added Melrak Channeler, from the Kelar Author thread.

This leaves us now with the following:
Battery of Souls - Change ability from dealing 10 damage to dealing 12 damage.
Fairy Peacekeeper - Reduce ability cost from 8 to 7.
Magishield - Change from a 5 turn counter to a 4 turn counter.
Melrak Channeler - Increase to 35/30.
Sporkman - Reduce sac to 33.

An alternative to Battery of Souls, would be that it instead prevents second life when it destroys a creature. This would do very little harm to most normal uses of BoS, but it would prevent Afterlife infinite mana combos.
And Magishield probably doesn't have enough consensus to carry on, unless we get some fresh support for change. If we don't I'll remove it.

Sporkman was actually 2 Yay, 2 Nay, 1 "Don't Care" by my count.

BoS doing 12 damage is okay as long as it gains 4 counters instead of 3 as a result.  Alternatively (or in addition) the obliteration clause is acceptable, but I don't know how you'd squeeze it on the card. But this is really the only problem with the card (infinite combos), not mana generation.

And I can't see how you can nerf War Cherry and not Tough Dragon.  Not that either one is at all broken, but they're basically the same power level.

Ya about BoS giving 4 counter for 12 damage:
60/12 = 5 * 4 = 20
60/10 = 6 * 3 = 18

I believe we're trying to nerf this thing. Blasting monsters to avoid spells and infinate combos aside, this thing is already annoying enough with dark/grey Gnarl and card-stat effected monsters like Kelar Charmshielder, Knowledge Eater, etc.

Edit: On that note I wouldn't mind if it had a 5 use per turn limit at 10 damage with no other changes (Basically can gain 1.5 generation per turn). But I'm pretty sure that's impossible seeing as how counters are already being used to keep track of it's mana.

There are two counter slots. The problem we have is limited space for card text.

I hate to say it, but I don't think this thread can accomplish anything effectively. You have a dozen cards with suggested fixes, and you're going back and forth between them and even adding new cards to the list. This isn't the job for a thread, it's the job for the whole balance forum. It is just too hard to keep track of what was said about each card.
Group threads may work when the cards listed have a common element (Eternals, weenies, counterspells, Weak Point and Smite, etc) or if the thread is short (maybe 2 pages) but there are too many cards here and too many pages to keep track of it all.

I think new threads need to be made for the individual cards in question.

Good idea. I'll split off the undecideds from here, and who knows - perhaps make new rebalanced cscs?

Edit: One day...