nerf Magenog

shwqa Wrote:I believe that mage nog is fine as is. It very powerful but leaves a monster very weak, is easy to stop, and only works if it is used in a combo.

It combos with every monster in the game though.

It's fine as is. It's a powerful card, but not broken.

Nacho Wrote:It combos with every monster in the game though.

except those with ability immune. Of course you could use open heart, but then that just means it needs an extra card to make the combo.

***This post has no relevance whatsoever***

Quote: It very powerful but leaves a monster very weak, is easy to stop, and only works if it is used in a combo.

If you use it repeatedly with the same monster it effectively doesn't leave them weak, even if you do manage to kill one it just can be used on a different monster, and it isn't really easy to stop. Multiple snipers or effect destruction.

It's not the worst offender ever, but it's enough to warrent a change. At least with a speed change most direct damage wouldn't be nullified by it.

There's some stuff that Mage Nog is particularly potent with, such as Lifebar monsters (setting all Lifebar monsters to 3 life as a failure cost is very strong). And Nacho's response to shwqa.

I'll agree to a nerf, but I'd probably prefer a single nerf.

I'd quite like to see the failure cost go if the speed is reduced though - it's much more often an advantage than a disadvantage.

i think mage nog is fine as is
yes it's powerful but once you use it on a monster it sort of becomes an addiction
the monster really can't survive without the mage nog
add multiple monsters and it becomes very difficult to keep them all alive
sure you could play more mage nogs...at the price of producing little or no mana
even with a full field of mage nogs you can only expect to keep 2 monsters alive for sure

NOLDER Wrote:i think mage nog is fine as is
yes it's powerful but once you use it on a monster it sort of becomes an addiction
the monster really can't survive without the mage nog

If you use it correctly, the monster couldn't have survived without Mage Nog in the first place, makeing the fact that it still can't after using the Mage Nog sort of moot.

NOLDER Wrote:add multiple monsters and it becomes very difficult to keep them all alive
sure you could play more mage nogs...at the price of producing little or no mana

Once again, if you're using it correctly, there are no multiple monsters. Mage Nog is used on one strong monster with low life, like Shadow Pudding, and creates a sort of invincible Wall that can attack if need be. The Nogling is almost immortal, and if he ever does die, it's a simple matter to make a new one.

NOLDER Wrote:even with a full field of mage nogs you can only expect to keep 2 monsters alive for sure

If you're not attacking with them, or only attacking with X of them, with X being the number of Mage Nogs you control - the number of creatures your opponent controls after your turn ends, you can keep 5 alive easily.

if you're using mage nog on an already weak creature then the creature is still weak
an effect D or two and you have a big problem on your hands

also if mage nog is such a big problem run more firebolts

NOLDER Wrote:if you're using mage nog on an already weak creature then the creature is still weak
an effect D or two and you have a big problem on your hands

Low life != weak. Mage Nog removes life from the equation, making it perfect to use on high attack, low life monsters. and since the monster couldn't have survived without Mage Nog anyway, Destroying the Mage Nog isn't any bigger a problem than if that effect D had hit a The Silver Arrow, or any other effect. Especially at 3/3/3, where it can be splashed into any old beatdown deck.

NOLDER Wrote:also if Mage Nog is such a big problem run more firebolts

Card X is too powerful. do we
A ) fix the card so that it's not as powerful, or
B ) Add 3 or 4 cards into all of our decks that really aren't necessary, and while not bad cards , not cards that I would normally use in my decks, specifically to counter it.

All broken cards have counters. The point is that I shouldn't be forced to include those counters in every deck I make for fear of running into that card.

You don't need it to protect multiple at once for it to be powerful. Since you can wait til mage nog until a monster is under threat of spell or attack, it isn't honestly that hard to provide a reasonable degree of protection. An undizzied mage nog is a guard for your entire field against any damage spell or effect slower than it.

And even with the addiction effect if you care all that much about a particular monster, sure, it's only affecting one at a time, but that's still a monster that won't be dying to damage, which is worth the price of admission.

Quote:even with a full field of mage nogs you can only expect to keep 2 monsters alive for sure

How do you figure that? You need at least three damage sources per monster, and that isn't easy to get without snipers or using multiple spells per target. If your opponent doesn't attack with them (or they do but it's an invisible attack like Aka), at least two sources need to be spells or abilities. That's about one nigh-invunerable creature per magenog in my book.

Unless there's a secret to deal with it that people aren't mentioning, it's not easy to overcome. Normal creatures can't do it at all (3 damage, 2 combats) and right now damage spells aren't too effective either. A small drop (D or E) would at least make damage spells viable.

Quote:if you're using mage nog on an already weak creature then the creature is still weak

Weak and immortal. That can still take a toll pretty quickly since unlike using the equally-costed swimsuit to protect creatures, they still do damage.

Countspatula shut me down and killed me over a fair length game with mere Melrak followers, since with two magenogs I couldn't hope to get past. If he actually had a skeletal abomination, or a Kelar Zombie for a cheaper example that can easily be afforded in multiple even in a deck with limited generation, it would've been a much shorter one-sided game.

I'm with masa on this one - reusable life set to a non-1 value is absurd with creatures that currently have Lifebar. (Like having Sheena and Clash Spybot BOTH being near-immune to damage for a turn with a single Nog, which is clearly ludicrous.)

Also since I remember discussing it in ways to nerf this card in the past (something about it originally intended as one-use lifebar protection that leaves the target vulnerable afterwards), here's a rewording I like:

Target monster
you control's life is
reduced to 3:
Monster gains (Lifebar)
until end of turn

How easy would it be to add "set only if life > 3"?

I like E mouse's sugestion. If we did that, there would be no need for further nerfing. It would save each monster you control from one and only one death.

@Mus: That would be a huge nerf to the card. That would mean that after one or two uses of the card on any one monster, it's useless. The simple solution would be to make it, "Target non-lifebar monster..."

@Q99: Every deck should have effect Ds.

@Nacho/NOLDER: Any sniper can put a stop to Mage Nog's effect. Even if the sniper is slower than Mage Nog, so long as it's undizzy at the end of your oponent's turn you can use it's ability twice before your oponent can use Mage Niog again and then attack the monster.

Mage Nog is mainly beatstick counter, there are plenty of non-beatsticks that can put a stop to it.

So who are you sharing your account with, Nacho?

And keep in mind the comparison to Shielded Gauntlet: It's essentially C-speed damage prevention for one turn, for a lower price and with no benefit to the opponent. And although the wording is ambiguous above, I didn't think of it failing to give Lifebar to creatures with less than 3 life: only not SET them to 3 life in addition. It'd probably work better if it were reworded without a failure cost, since that part is rarely an issue (I mean, why would someone use Nog on a creature that would survive anyway?).

Another major strength of Mage Nog is that its ability is very powerful on BOTH offense and defense: the obvious strategy with it is to use it with low-life, high-attack monsters that would probably die from a single combat anyway. The thing is that Nog can be used BOTH to make semi-common "suiciding" of such creatures to prevent an opponent creature from gaining a foothold (like those snipers Nacho mentioned) into one-way destruction and "I hope you have some way to kill me before next turn, probably requiring an extra card"; AND to make any surviving creature on defense into a perfect wall from a non-ability attack, as well as requiring several of any semi-slow ability hits to eliminate.

Also, a better and more common comparison than Skeletal Abomination:

I'm against E mouse's idea, the one time use per monster would make mage nog really only useful in rush decks.

I vote for no change. I see no sufficient evidence that this card is overly strong for it's cost or that it's ability can be abused in any particularly unfair way.
Oh, since I've come across this lately: That doesn't mean state "Andriex" the arguments you've already posted, and follow it up with "Are you telling me that's not over powered?"
Yes, I am. I can read and that's exactly what I just said. If I wasn't convinced by it ten minutes ago, repetition ain't gonna change a damn thing, you strange, strange person.

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Now, for my own personal amusement:

Nacho Wrote:If you use it correctly...

No such thing.

Q99 Wrote:...mere Melrak followers

No such thing.

It obviously should stay very effective against creatures, it's the fact that it's very difficult to overcome with damage spells other than firebolt that I think needs changing.

i think thats the point of lifebar in general...

�ルノ Wrote:So who are you sharing your account with, Nacho?

Looks like Bubbleman forgot to log out of my account before rebutting me.