nerf Magenog

Still against nerfing Mage Nog.

EDIT: I'll probably post why later.

actually
after thinking about it
i'm ok with reducing life to 3 if above 3

I think Magenog is fine. Haven't seen any reason to nerf it yet.

I still think it could use at least a speed change so it wouldn't be so powerful against damage spells as well.

I also think the nog is fine. No need to change it. Even the fact that it sets monsters at life lower than 3 to 3 is fine.

Could I hear some arguments why? I still don't see how it's not better than evenly-priced cards like Swimsuit, since it's both better on offense and provides protection against spells, and the vunerability afterwards isn't a big thing in many circumstances.

I'm starting to think it's a little strong myself, in combination with things like Goblin...

Because your spending 3/3/3 and an effect slot to protect a monster. Why would 3/7/3 for a 60 attack power monster that basically has DLG 0% is totally fair. Not to mention that it's weak to effect Ds and counter spells. Sure if the monster gets destroyed, your can use Mage Nog on something else, but when I use Mage Nog, it almost always gets Effect D'd or Reclaimed or the like before my monster gets destroyed. It's not a 4 mana near-invincible monster like some are making it out to be, it's a 13 mana near invincible monster.

Edit at above post: You're wasting your 3/3/3 mana card and an effect slot to get a 40 damage sniper. That sounds fair to me.

People are acting as though Mage Nog doesn't dizzy to use it's ability. You can only use it once per turn and it only lasts until the end of the turn, meaning it can only effectively protect one card at a time and it's actually fairly mediocre protection on a lot of cards since it lasts until the end of the turn and not the end of the round.

Serith Wrote:I'm starting to think it's a little strong myself, in combination with things like Goblin...

played that deck too eh?

everyones played my deck. its the only one i own that works so far the win lose/ ratio is about 1:1 because it fails horribly against pretty much any deck with effect d/ alot of snipers.

I've beaten that deck before, but I realize that if he'd ever drawn a Goblin earlier, I'd have been completely hosed.

It's not just a 40 damage sniper. It's an invincible wall and a 40-damage sniper. This costs 3/6/3, and if your wall somehow dies (likely to a straight monster d spell, which are expensive), you can replace it for 3d (or already have a replacement out, most likely). Mage Noggs are also fairly easy to run multiples of - they're not extremely expensive. (Effect d would not have helped against countspatula's deck - he has more mage noggs than I run effect d; and if I ran more effect d, I'd be a lot weaker against other decks.)

Yes, it only lasts for one turn. But you know, the opponent only has one attack phase.

edit: the only reason I actually beat count's deck was because he didn't draw enough early creatures.

Quote:Because your spending 3/3/3 and an effect slot to protect a monster.

Which swimsuit does, but only on defense. With Magenog you can both use it on offense and use it to protect against Might Makes Wrongs, lasers and the like too, since it's faster.

Quote:Why would 3/7/3 for a 60 attack power monster that basically has DLG 0% is totally fair.

Overlooking that it can be used on subsequent monsters once one does die. It's also better than DLG 0% since it works on spells too.

Quote: but when I use Mage Nog, it almost always gets Effect D'd or Reclaimed or the like before my monster gets destroyed.

Which is true for all effects period and hardly a weakness unique to Magenog. It still does it's job better than comparable cards, and it can be used in some really nice combos.

The fact that your monsters don't get destroyed until after it's gone is sorta the more important point.

Quote: It's not a 4 mana near-invincible monster like some are making it out to be, it's a 13 mana near invincible monster.

No, it's a 9-mana (tri-color so effectively less in most decks) floating near-invincibility that goes to whatever monster needs it at the time, and that flexibility is worth something.

@Serith: It takes two damage that way. Any sniper, any damage spell, hell even a Snow Ball would kill it. And 3/6/3 and two cards and an effect slot is a large price either way.

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Q99 Wrote:Which swimsuit does, but only on defense. With Magenog you can both use it on offense and use it to protect against Might Makes Wrongs, lasers and the like too, since it's faster.

Stop with the comparison to Swim Suit, it's a different card with a different ability. I can't dizzy my opponent's Salvager with my Mage Nog for instance. They are equally powerful. I can stop my opponent's abilities with Swimsuit, just as I can stop their spells with Mage Nog, I can stop one of my opponent's monsters with Swimsuit and protect one of mine with Mage Nog, it all even out. They just are used for different things. What you're doing is like saying, "Clash Sniper Diane and Winged Golem cost the same mana, Clash Sniper Diane has worse stats, she needs a boost". You're completely ignoring Swimsuit's benefits that Magenog can't provide.

Quote:Overlooking that it can be used on subsequent monsters once one does die. It's also better than DLG 0% since it works on spells too.

It's also worse, since it only works until the end of the turn. And I wasn't ignoring that it can be used on subsequent monsters, I specifically addressed that later in my post. Effect Ds are cheaper than monster Ds and can ruin your combo all the same, leaving you with a weak 3 life monster and no protection.

Quote:Which is true for all effects period and hardly a weakness unique to Magenog. It still does it's job better than comparable cards, and it can be used in some really nice combos. The fact that your monsters don't get destroyed until after it's gone is sorta the more important point.

That's kind of the point. Mage Nog is an effect, the combos are vulnerable to effect Ds, get it? The combos are nice but not broken, it's job is done well, but not fantastically, it's ability is somewhat similar, but not even close to the same as other cards that have been compared to it. So your saying that my 2 or 3 life monsters are extremely helpful somehow? I mean, I guess for some monsters that could be the case, but all but three of your monster's life is a large price to pay, and effect Ds are on average around 4 mana cheaper than monster Ds. With that 4 mana they can easily kill your 3 life monster.

Quote:No, it's a 9-mana (tri-color so effectively less in most decks) floating near-invincibility that goes to whatever monster needs it at the time, and that flexibility is worth something.

So are effect slot, so are cards, so is your monster's life, so it a strong vulnerability to counter spells and effect Ds. The fact that it sets your monster's life to 3 means that Mage Nog does have a disadvantage against counter spells and effect Ds that most other effects don't have to deal with.

its not the effect d that screws me its wthe mana to keep playing nogs so if i dont have a bazzaar then i have to wait min. 3 turns for a nog. so thats easy winnings if you have a burn burn in first hand (even if you just burn burn bazzaar its me screwed).

Quote:@Serith: It takes two damage that way. Any sniper, any damage spell, hell even a Snow Ball would kill it. And 3/6/3 and two cards and an effect slot is a large price either way.

Then they've managed to destroy a goblin for the low, low price of a card, 40-sniper damage, and 30 damage from a block (if it does block, hardly a given with a 40-point sniper around), and the next goblin gets the same thing. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

countspatula Wrote:I don't use generators so playing things is hard for me.

i do play generators just not light and grey ones.

Q99 Wrote:

Quote:@Serith: It takes two damage that way. Any sniper, any damage spell, hell even a Snow Ball would kill it. And 3/6/3 and two cards and an effect slot is a large price either way.

Then they've managed to destroy a goblin for the low, low price of a card, 40-sniper damage, and 30 damage from a block (if it does block, hardly a given with a 40-point sniper around), and the next goblin gets the same thing.

Whoa, a card? Where's the logic there? I'm using a 3/3/3 card effect on my Goblin, yeah, it's going to be somewhat more useful then if I didn't, what's your point? And the next Goblin can get a boost from the same 3/3/3 effect card, how is that a problem? That's how every single effect in the game works. It's not a secret advantage that only Mage Nog has.

Quote:Pretty balanced deal if you ask me.

Fixed.

Quote:Stop with the comparison to Swim Suit, it's a different card with a different ability. I can't dizzy my opponent's Salvager with my Mage Nog for instance. They are equally powerful.

Swimsuit can do some stuff that Magenog can't, but Magenog has uses Swimsuit can't too and Magenog is harder to overcome tham swimsuit.

I have a lot of experience with swimsuit and I don't see them as equal in overall power even if Swimsuit does have it's niches. They each have different powers but fill a similar role.

Quote:It's also worse, since it only works until the end of the turn.

And refreshable, so not leaving any vunerability to any spell slower than it, which is almost all of them.

The flexibility of being able to continuously protect or not at your option is a nice advantage.

Quote: And I wasn't ignoring that it can be used on subsequent monsters, I specifically addressed that later in my post. Effect Ds are cheaper than monster Ds and can ruin your combo all the same, leaving you with a weak 3 life monster and no protection.

At which point it's already presumably saved that monster at least once so that's really not much of a drawback. If you have more than one 3-lifed creature it's because you've saved multiple monsters from death. If you've only been protecting one then all the others will be at what they would be otherwise.

That doesn't ruin the combo in a deck with monsters that have magenog in mind, it merely put things back on fair game after the 'nogged creatures have already inflicted a lot of hurt in terms of damage and resources.

Quote:Whoa, a card? Where's the logic there?

The spell needed to inflict the third source of damage, which is required to do a third source without a sniper. So, in general, a card.

Quote:That's kind of the point. Mage Nog is an effect, the combos are vulnerable to effect Ds, get it? The combos are nice but not broken, it's job is done well, but not fantastically, it's ability is somewhat similar, but not even close to the same as other cards that have been compared to it. So your saying that my 2 or 3 life monsters are extremely helpful somehow?

Since they've delt at least one extra turn of damage (generally more, depending on how long magenog has been out) and been saved from death, yes. As long as the nog is out, the 2-3 life is almost irrelevent.

Even the person who runs a magenog deck admits effect D isn't his biggest worry unless it comes early, and I can tell you when I faced him counterspells didn't help much either.

Quote:I'm using a 3/3/3 card effect on my Goblin, yeah, it's going to be somewhat more useful then if I didn't, what's your point?

That it's disproportionately hard to deal with for it's cost and it even is pretty good at stuff outside it's primary purpose like protecting against damage spells.

Quote:Pretty balanced deal if you ask me.
Fixed.

I'm still not close to convinced. Most of the pro-nerf arguments have game experience behind them and most of the anti just say 'it's fine'.

Once again, I say we should at least reduce the speed.

fine as is chaosex countspat andriex bubble leander kenn 6
speed down q99 ult serith 3
only reduce life to 3 mus nacho masa shwqa nolder blue 6

NO CHANGE

EDIT: Though the "reduce life to 3" thing does have webrunner's ok, if we can get consensus for that.