Energy Surplus Provides Too Little

Well, I really don't see that being an issue.  I mean the cheapest way somebody is going to get allying four is with what, four ZFF officers?  But that's still 44, which means you could play an energy surplus on turn five, assuming you can keep all those ZFFs in play...Yeah, really doesn't seem like you could abuse it much there.  Any other easy ways to reach allying 4 without using generators that I'm missing?  Using that mana just for a cantrip really wouldn't work well either.  And what Blue said--It takes the bottommost gens, so it's really actually just giving you a greater concentration of generators unless you're way far in the game already, at which point using this card wouldn't really be abuse. I just wouldn't like to see that, because then if you drew it late game and for some reason you had no gens left it'd be useless. However, I guess that really wouldn't be a large issue because the odds of that happening are slim to none.

Oh, wow, I was thinking the same thing as masamunemaniac, even before he suggested it. I'm getting kinda scared already.

Vincent: The point of the card is to get gens though. If you draw it late game and you have no more gens in your deck then you most likely don't need it. And what are the odds of actually picking it when you have no gens in your deck unless you stuff a ton of Energy Surpluses into your deck?

The concern Vincent is more of a mid-to-late game issue. Basically, once you have gens and so forth, you can use Energy Surplus like a 1/1 Touch of Knowledge/Ancient Legends. Granted, you'll need to have very few gens and your start will be VERY slow assuming you use 2 of those Energy Surpluses just to get 4 gens in play; but if you pull it off you have a cheap means of repeatedly drawing 2 cards.

I don't consider it a big enough issue to argue over. masa has already found a solution that barely effects the card. If by some miracle you've drawn all your gens and then draw an Energy Surplus, you'll be no worse off than if Energy Surplus had been a gen; which it probably would of been in any deck that actually uses Energy Surplus.

Masa's suggestion is fine. I knew there was some possible abuse I couldn't put my finger on...

Hmm... just one question...

You have no generators in your deck, but you meet Allying: 4. Does:

1) "Allying 4: Draw a card" fail because the previous part failed?
or
2) "Allying 4: Draw a card" draw a card even though the previous part failed?

It can be coded to work either way, I'm just wondering which way it looks like it should go.

Also, if anyone else can word the ability better while still fitting it on the card, please post your suggestions.

Allying 4: Draw another

Allying 4: Draw again

Maybe? Gives an implication that the rest needs to work in order to function.

Then again, having a conditional cantrip for it once you run out of gens in your deck is hardly game-breaking... I'm not sure how to make that clearer without causing more clutter or confusion, though.

At the moment, the bottommost note isn't often an issue (or could be added to gameplay notes as a convention for all topdecking), so one could argue for removal of that. Though that would imply removal for other cards of the type, so it's probably not worth fighting with at the moment.

Well, I have a question for you, masa: Is the card supposed to be unplayable period with no generators, or is the ability just supposed to fail if there's no generators?  I think allying 4 still working if you have no generators would be fine.  That way end game it can at least cantrip, but I hardly see a 2 mana cantripper breaking anything.

Also, if you wanted to, you could put "topdeck two generators" instead of "the two bottomost gens are put on top" and just have a wiki note for topdecking or something of the like. Though, as is it doesn't really need more space anyway.

The card currently draws if you meet the allying requirement without any generators in the deck (topdecking doesn't cause ability failure). I'm not asking from a balance perspective, or an intent purpose, I'm asking how you interpret what I've wrote down. If people don't read it as being cantrip with no gens, then I might look into rewording it.

Incidentally there's already a wiki page for Topdecking. I've got no problem with it as a term, but I'd rather not add it as terminology on the cards until we run into spacial constriants that demand it, or it becomes more commonplace.

And get an avatar - I thought you were Exile at first glance (though checking, Exile's just hit 751 posts so he's now a Summon. Damnit, I'm not going to recognise him for ages now too.)

To me it's unclear - I wouldn't assume either way. It would be good to make it a little clearer, but doing that without using much space is difficult. Maybe:

Allying 4: Draw (always)

People are apparently missing the point of my complaint about this card. In particular, I envision someone deliberately designing their deck to be heavy on Energy Surplus but light on generators, thus causing them to run out of generators quickly. Say ~8 generators and ~15 Energy Surplus in a ~45 card deck. This would tend to be about 1 turn slower than a deck that was mana-heavy and used allying generators, but would provide the benefit of inexpensive card draw and mana-thin deck. Normally having a lot of card-drawers is impractical because it is tough to ensure sufficient mana, but in this case the card draw provides the mana if it is needed.

It would often be 2 turns slower, since you'd need to cast 2 energy surpluses to get up to 4.

And allying gens are already really slow. Playing your first gen on turn 3 is terrible.

I think we addressed you point quite nicely when we decided that it would never give you 2 cards if you didn't have generators in your deck and started debating whether it should even give you 1. Personally, I don't like the idea that the card would be totally dead without any generators left in your deck, since arms locker still cycles itself even if you're out of weapons. Having to pay to draw your card that turn is penalty enough.

so isnt that like paying an extra for npc? minus the the sac value and the 0/10 wall if needed

sounds fair to me...

aguydude has a point, you know.

Everyone else reckons that my proposal covers the problem though.

aguydude, run us through a game, turn by turn, explaining what you mean/where the problem lies. Ignore opponent's turn and assume you draw whatever it is you need to illustrate the point. I want to see who's misunderstanding who here.

If the the highest number of non-gen cards it can draw is one, which has the majority vote right now, most of the time over stuffing your deck with them will have little bearing on the game as a whole other then making you spend a bit of mana every turn of cantrips.

I didn't even have a problem to draw 2 card always but I'm fine with the always draw with just allying. starting the game 2 turns slower is horrible enough as it is but with declaring to your opponent that you have no more mana card and they can beat you with a few reclaims and burn burns that are normally in every deck is enough of a trade off for 1.5 mana off your card drawers.

Well, if I understand correctly, masamunemaniac, you have not taken a side on whether or not it should cantrip if you have no generators.  aguydude was agreeing with your suggestion, but saying that it should not cantrip after generators run out.  Say you take his idea and make the deck like that.  Turn 1, you probably have an energy surplus.  You play it, get a gen.  The next few turns you play the gens you draw.  Then, because there's so much energy surpluses + gens, you probably have another one already.  Just play it again.  So now you can get 4 allying.  You waste 2/2 more mana to draw the other 4 gens and play one.  You have played 5 gens, and have 3 in your hand just in case.  Now, every time you draw an energy surplus, you can play it, and that is a way of making sure you only draw monsters/spells. Not to mention the ability to use the undizzying part of the Zero-G Facility without an allying deck.

Sasha, who appears to be trying to make his profile inaccessible for some reason Wrote:Not to mention the ability to use the undizzying part of the Zero-G Facility without an allying deck.

... how?

This still leaves you spending virtually all of your resources to get mana out until about turn 5, and then use up extra in order to 'really' draw your card if you get a further Energy Supply. How will this be better than not using any Energy Supplies at all?

I'm pretty sure that cards with allying in your graveyard have no effect on your Allying count, if that's what you're arguing.