Slowing Down the Clock... works

oh

didn't realize i had named off one of the options >_>;
heh...
anyway yeah i think i like that one the best

Run a deck that uses shadow clockworks in it. Also use Power Cells (1 for every 2 clockworks) Its so far the best ratio I have come up with since if I have too many of one I'll be stuck till I get the other. Anyways, The First option suggested is the best, since Clockworks are depended on a card to power it, thus a deck would need to have enough power generaters to get after a few draws but not too much where every other turn you are drawing a power generater. For the most part the other ideas are either too extreme or too complex.
Though I'd like to add a few more cons to the list. They are minor, but what I concider when building and tuning my deck.

1-Most Clockwork decks either use batterys, power cells, or other power cards that take up space on the field. Compared to the ore generaters I am gaining less a turn.
2-The best ones tend to have A lot of cards in there decks (66 for mine) mainly in fear of decking out since your deck draw speed is going up and you find yourself discarding more cards.

Personally, Clockwork cards don't need as big of a nerf as you guys think. It should be small enough to keep it from being broken, but small enough so it is playable. I saw Hold off on Nerfing it, till more cards come out.

1-Solar Panel, Fossil Engine, and Nuclear Plant. Fossil Engine in particular would work very well in the Chimera deck I saw you use. You said "most Clockwork decks", but the point is you aren't restricted to 1/1 less than ores/dual gens, it's merely an option.
2-I have a 30 card Clockwork deck. 7 Clockworks and 6 Power Cells. I never have a problem with decking as I just bludgeon my opponent to death with beatstickery long before that. I only need to play 5 of the gen cards and the others I can use just as extra card draw if I have extra mana (one of the points for nerfing it). Point being deck size isn't a limitation either.

Okay, I haven't read through this whole arguement yet (which I will), but I wanted to post an idea before I forget.

What about a scaling cost, but keep cantrips?  For example, "Each further clockwork costs you 1/1 to play" or something along those lines.  This would certainly slow them down, but too much?  I don't know.  Just limits you to playing one per turn (normally).  People could still cycle power sources/low amount of clockworks, but I think having less mana would at least be a drawback. I'd say that this might be a drastic nerf, but based on what you guys have been throwing around I can't tell if mana sooner is more important than the card advantage.

That's way to drastic a nerf. The last clockwork would cost 4/4, way to much for something that generates 1/1 if you have power and nothing if you don't.

edit: did you mean 1/1 more each or something like slime valley where all others would cost 2/2? either way it's still to expensive

But you still get the cantrip, so it's all how much you decide replacing itself is worth.  You are paying more, but let's look at it this way:

Turn 1:
Plays power cell
Hand: 5 Mana: 0/0/0 Gen: 0/0

Nothing
Hand: 6 Mana:1/1/1 Gen: 0/0

Turn 2:
Plays clockwork
Hand: 6 Mana 1/0/0 Gen: 1/1

Plays dual gen
Hand: 6 Mana: 2/0/0 Gen:1/1

Turn 3:
Plays clockwork
Hand: 7 Mana: 2/0/0 Gen:2/2

Plays dual gen
Hand: 6 Mana: 3/0/0 Gen: 2/2

Turn 4:
Plays clockwork
Hand: 8 Mana: 3/0/0 Gen: 3/3

Plays dual gen
Hand: 6 Mana: 4/0/0 Gen: 3/3

Turn 5:
Plays clockwork
Hand: 8 (discarded one) Mana: 3/0/0 Gen: 4/4

Plays two gens
Hand: 5 Mana: 5/0/0 Gen: 5/5

So basically the mana generation is roughly on par with dual gens (which I guess has been decided as slow anyway), but the person with clockworks is going to have more cards.  This also means they're going to have a greater chance of actually drawing this many generators to play anyway.  Most games people don't draw 5 non-cantripping generators in the first 5 turns.  A less drastic nerf might be something like: "Into play: Costs 1/1 more for every two clockwork effects in play" or something along those lines.

Vincent Wrote:So basically the mana generation is roughly on par with dual gens (which I guess has been decided as slow anyway)

very slow. a better comparison would be ores, since there are actually decks that use only those as generators.

Turn 1:
Plays power cell
Hand: 5 Mana: 0/0/0 Gen: 0/0

Nothing
Hand: 6 Mana:1/1/1 Gen: 0/0

Turn 2:
Plays clockwork
Hand: 6 Mana 1/0/0 Gen: 1/1

Plays 2 ores
Hand: 5 Mana: 2/0/0 Gen:1/1

Turn 3:
Plays clockwork
Hand: 7 Mana: 2/0/0 Gen:2/2

Plays ore
Hand: 5 Mana: 3/0/1 Gen: 2/1

Turn 4:
Plays clockwork
Hand: 8 Mana: 3/0/0 Gen: 3/3

Plays 2 ores
Hand: 4 Mana: 4/0/0 Gen: 4/4

Turn 5:
Plays clockwork
Hand: 8 (discarded one) Mana: 3/0/0 Gen: 4/4

Plays ore
Hand: 4 Mana: 5/4/3 Gen: 5/5

4 cards for 2/4/3 and you generate 1/1 less a turn and the ores probably managed to play a monster on turn 5 too, and has allying 5.

Vincent Wrote:This also means they're going to have a greater chance of actually drawing this many generators to play anyway.  Most games people don't draw 5 non-cantripping generators in the first 5 turns.

Maybe you don't, but I do on a regular basis. In fact I usually draw 5 non cantripping generators by turn 3 or 4. Though I usualy make it a point to have about 40% of my deck as generators.

More often than not anything more than a 1/3 mana ratio is excessive.  Maybe you'll be guaranteed mana more in the early game, but then you get screwed a lot in the mid-late game by drawing more mana.  I think that comparing clockworks to allying/dual gens isn't really fair.  Most people do not draw 5 of those generators by turn 5, whereas it's pretty common for 5 clockworks/power to come within those same 5 turns, because of their cantripping ability.  You're completely cutting out the advantages of clockworks mana by just comparing maximum mana generation.  Clockworks just have more cards to work with, and this is a huge advantage.  Even if the change was as drastic as I said, you'd be the same (if not better by drawing more mana) on mana generation, and have a better chance of drawing a card that you need/want.

Maybe 1/1 for each extra clockwork isn't exactly the way to go, but I think it should have a cost increase along these lines. I wouldn't like to see removed cantrip, because I think that taking that away goes against what the card should do.

Vincent Wrote:Maybe 1/1 for each extra clockwork isn't exactly the way to go, but I think it should have a cost increase along these lines.  I wouldn't like to see removed cantrip, because I think that taking that away goes against what the card should do.

Actually, funny that you mention it, but the cantripping was something that was bolted on a long time ago when it was determined that clockworks sucked without it, so I don't know that I'd call it some kind of inherent inviolable property of clockworks.

While I'm not exactly crazy about this proposal, what about just making clockworks cost X/X, where X is the number of clockworks you already control?  That would basically be a slightly watered-down version of Vincent's nerf.  I still think the conditional draw (if you don't control any ~this~) is preferable, but this seems like a reasonable alternative, if it can be coded (and elegantly worded).

Wouldn't that make the first one you played a free, cantripping effect? I don't know, that sounds like it would cause as many problems as it solved.

Nacho Wrote:Wouldn't that make the first one you played a free, cantripping effect? I don't know, that sounds like it would cause as many problems as it solved.

Can you give an example as to why that would be the case?  I don't think the problem is with someone playing a single clockwork.  The closest I can come up with off the top of my head is using Modulo to spam it, but then you're limiting yourself to one out at a time, and you could do the same right now with Bakuga's Lab or NPS.  That said, I don't think this is my preferred solution, but it at least seems like a reasonable possibility.

I think he might have meant X/X more, which would make sense.

I think that'd be a workable idea, as well. You trade obscene card advantage for rising play costs. Hell, even having them cost 2/2 if you have any power or clockworks on the field would make abuse more difficult, and at least actually cost the same to play as most other dual gens. Still, the obscene card advantage has really shown to be the abusable point here - reducing that without making them fail to make up for their risks and downsides is probably a better way to go. Eliminating it entirely is probably too much, all things considered, but the "first of clockwork type only" suggestion seems like the best compromise so far.

Well, after my proposal was shown to be obsolete, I haven't taken sides.  But now I think Vincent has a very good point.  If he meant that each additional clockwork costs 2/2, like Slime Valley, that is.  I don't see it costing any more than that.  That way, you do get a full field just about on par with the ores, so if you look at the end more closely:
Turn 4:
Plays clockwork
Hand: 8 Mana: 3/1/1 Gen: 3/3

Plays 2 ores
Hand: 4 Mana: 4/0/0 Gen: 4/4

Turn 5:
Sacrifices Power Cell
Plays clockwork
Plays power plant
Hand: 7 (discarded one) Mana: 4/1/1 Gen: 5/5

Plays ore
Hand: 4 Mana: 5/4/3 Gen: 5/5


So you have 4 extra cards drawn at the price of 1/3/2.  That's about the same as if you had AL/ToK.  But the other person has an allying advantage, and you have the power plant disadvantage.  Which will be especially a disadvantage if the fossil engine will be changed to discard from hand and nuclear power plant chance will be upped.  So they're not horribly overpowered that way.
Now note that if you do not draw 4 allying generators, you're screwed.  The clockworks are not overpowered in that manner because the same would be the case if you do not draw a power source with the clockwork deck.  Not to mention being able to be supplemented with like ZFF or something for the allying decks.

I'm of the impression that Fossil Engine causing discards from hand would make it horrendously weak. Even though I don't use the card, I'd be incredibly opposed to that change.

And I know that Clockworks are overpowered, but some of these suggestions are ridiculous. And besides, if anything, upping the mana costs of Clockworks makes them balanced in decks that need the cycling (Chimera, RD/L, FoL maybe, other similar setups) but underpowered in regular power decks that don't rely on the cantrip. The primary purpose is generation, cantrip is secondary to that; I'd like to keep it that way, myself.

You don't think card advantage is worth that even in regular games?

It's just that I, along with a lot of others (I imagine), play generators for mana.

I mean, if Neutral Charms cost 3 and cantripped, sure it'd be nice and balanced and useable, but I'm really just after the 1 generation per turn.

Again, let's fix what's wrong with the card, instead of fixing what's NOT wrong with the card so it evens out anyway

I'd just like to point out that we do not want Clockworks to be on-par with dual gens based on generation. People seem to be forgetting that the cantrip is the problem. If Clockworks didn't cantrip, then they would be about equal to dual gens and making them generate the same at the same rate would be the issue.

There were some very nice proposals/agreements on limiting the cantrip just so that it would be easier to draw Power generators without allowing Clockworks to draw cards beyond that (which is the problem).

I personally like either the "doesn't cantrip if you have Power" or "doesn't cantrip if you have ~this~ in play" ideas as they address the problem.
There are probably multiple things we could do to Clockworks to make them "balanced" but if we're going to have any agreement on what to do, the solution that fixes the problem and only the problem is the easiest way to go.
The more complicated the solution, the more potential for new problems.


Also Sasha, we're not nerfing Fossil Engine and Nuclear Plant. No ifs, just no.

What if clockwork only generated 1 mana? Or is that too huge of a nerf.

Much too huge and completely switches their purpose from "conditional dual color generator" to "cantrip that generates a little bit if you bother to." There are plenty of other cantrip options for the same cost or less (deregister, reflexes, coffee shops are closed day, accelerator/deccelerator, NPC, etc etc), so making them a devoted effect version of that is not only against the point but completely redundant.

Again, the primary problem with Clockworks is the card advantage, the cantrip for a card that is usually also extremely useful while in play (just look at the others - how often do you see them used for much more than card cycling or halving the damage of a single attack by NPCs?). Paying half the price for dual generators at the cost of needing another special effect (generally worse than a plain dual gen) and needing to worry more about effect D is fair, even a little vulnerable - doing so without paying a single card for it is the problem. NO other generator or directly-potential generator will draw you a card, so you have to lose one from your hand for the long-term benefits. Clockworks ignore that downside, giving you more generation for essentially free by the start of your next turn. Other generators generally break even on resulting mana gain the immediate next turn compared to not being played (other dual gens lose a little in exchange for the extra color's generation), but you ALWAYS lose that card used to put them into play. Drawing an extra usable card via the use of Ancient Legends and Touch of Knowledge has been consented to be worth about 3 mana. With clockworks you get it for nothing.