Bah, Sheena attachment issues

no i'm saying quit whining and just build another deck to counter the 1 you find that you don't like. let me see if i can put this any plainer:

NO ONE DECK IS GOING TO HANDLE EVERY SITUATION GET OVER IT!!!!!

the fact remains that this combo is able to be countered - so there is nothing wrong w/ it - if your current deck can't build another deck that can and use it when playing a deck w/ this combo - just like i don't expect my kelar deck to stand up to a chimera or a TDQ deck it just ain't going to happen plain and simple but i'm not asking for a nerf on chimera or TDQ i just built other decks that have a chance against 1 of those decks.

i vote that the combo is fine the way it is - if it is changed then it promotes unused cards remaining unused taking variety and spice from the game.

if that's the way you ppl want it why not just restart the whole thing over w/ 5 cards - low att, mid att, high att, kill att spell, negate spell spell, no need for affects or abilities - that would put variety into the game - and we can't have that now can we?!? *rolls eyes*

The point is that not too many deck types can incorporate global damagers into their themes. Not just commonly used ones, even original ones. There simply aren't enough cards that can destroy this combo for it to be plausible for a good number of decks to defeat it. Getting rid of this combo would not promote the use of commonly used cards and destroy originality in the slightest, especially since a lot of global damagers are very commonly used. If there's a combo that less than ten cards in the game can usually destroy, I consider it broken regardless of what cards are needed in order to destroy it. Promoting unoriginal ideas is not a factor here.

No deck is going to beat every other deck, true. Still, looking over the global damagers and such from the NPC (War Vendor), there aren't really many good ways to deal 51 damage in a small amount of time. The counters which do exist to the combo aren't particularly good at countering it.

For example, Metal Babble, which is normally fine for killing Sheena if she's an annoying blocker, will kill itself before Sheena dies if her life has been boosted by Shadowforce Heart. Space Leech and Open Heart are unusable, because there's already a modifier on Sheena. Axion only works on non-uniques. It would take more Stun Grenades than would be worth it (6 cards, 18 18 and 210 life worth of Stun Grenades to be precise). Etc etc.

After throwing out ways which don't work, trophy cards, and donation cards, we're left with... 19 cards by my count. Of those:
-2 are really expensive, and should probably just be making their user win the game: Eternion (Clash) and Khrima (Final Boss Form 4)
-3 are global sweepers, and also pretty expensive: Library Fire, The Nothing and Fury of Heaven
-2 are random results of summoners and would need to be rolled multiple times: Shadow Queen and Poseidon
-2 are monsters that have a global damaging ability, but would probably be killed before they got to activate it enough times for the kill: Khrimech and Diane (War)
-Malatak would likely be killed before he got to attack 3 times
-Marcus doesn't have speed summon, and would likely be killed before he got to change owners

That leaves:
-Soulsphere
-The Dark Quadrant
-Falling Stars?
-Khrimalith
-Magic Staff
-Gildward (War)
-Volcano
-Missilepod

Of course, the list didn't include trap cards. If Sheena is attacking, then you get:
-Kelar Tower
-Mountain Range

Now, I may have eliminated something at some point that shouldn't have been (I'm not perfect), but that leaves a fairly narrow range of cards that can deal with the combo. Some of those basically demand the whole deck being built around them, but are actually good. Others (Magic Staff, Volcano, Missilepod) require enough turns to work that the combo is still going to really hurt.

Basically, the only answer to the card that doesn't take a while or restructure your entire deck is Gildward (War), and, well... he sucks. Unless maybe there's some combo for him... does putting The Shields on an enemy monster make him destroy it?

Well, that is, unless you plan on putting up a stream of blockers... and maybe using Abandoned Fortress...

ok i can see your point of shadowforce heart ONLY - i use her w/ instability which keeps her life points low - maybe that part COULD use some balance - i'll agree to that part - but the combo itself (mainly instability) is fine - on just the shadowforce heart side - there are other cards that if you put shadowforce heart on it doesn't change it's life points or does 1 at the most - possibly that itself can be fixed but the combo in general is fine - no point on changing sheena's attack or giving her can't attack

just give her NPC form lifebar as well so that if shadowforce heart IS played it only goes up 1?
done that way:
1) her NPC form will still only have 1 life unmodified so doesn't help her in the slightest.
2) if shadowforce heart is played, she gets 1 more to a total of 2 life - keeping shadowforce heart doing what it's supposed to affecting attack AND life but in no way makes her over powered (good but still EASILY beaten by global damagers)
3) still provides use for global damagers so people will create decks w/ them in them - if not then they can use the expensive to play cards such as FOH, the nothing, or library fire providing more variety of cards in play and fewer cards that nobody uses

though i will point out that i've seen combos that sheena w/ shadowforce heart wouldn't b able to touch as well.

Looking back through the thread, it seems I did miss a couple answers to the combo, such as Stone Dragon and Year Three Cake. Still...

Anyway, people will just pick whichever combo is less fragile... probably. Lifebar probably would help... still, there are a lot of decks which don't bring any answers at all, and to them it doesn't really matter if they need to hit 2 or 6 times with Missilepod (for example).

Also, global damagers do get used, just not in most decks. CMC has a wide variety of cards: most cards don't get used in most decks. If anything, I think encouraging people to use more global damagers will actually reduce the number of cards used, since they'll be excluding other cards to try and fit them into their decks.

...and the Sheena/Shadowforce doesn't have to touch the other combo... the Sheena/Shadowforce player can bring disruption in addition to their combo. Maybe... I've never played a combo deck.

This is probably getting kinda off though. The real question is, "Should 17 mana and 2 (uncounterable) cards be able to devastate most decks?"

1) Global damaging decks exist currently. It's not as if they're some elusive beast that no one would play otherwise.
2) "This combo couldn't beat X" doesn't mean it's balanced.
3) Giving her NPC form lifebar wouldn't solve any of the flavor complaints, if you believe they're worth discussing.
4) If anyone believes Shadowforce Heart is the only problem, it's worth considering that the mod needs changing by itself. I don't necessarily agree, but it's been brought up in multiple discussions of theoretically broken combos.
5) Gildward is totally awesome.

Just some comments, not really looking to convince anyone of anything. I remain completely happy with my vote and won't be changing it, it just occurred to me that these points might be ones worth addressing by you people.

Edit: Oh, look. Clyceer covered part of my post before I did. Clever one.

clyceer Wrote:"This is probably getting kinda off though. The real question is, "Should 17 mana and 2 (uncounterable) cards be able to devastate most decks?"

if that's the case should a chimera deck be able to devistate most decks? or a charmshielder deck? or a well put together TDQ deck? maybe a good rush deck? or any of the other strategies played that work well against most decks? instead of nerfing the combo (although i CAN see and concede to the shadowforce heart) maybe people need more strategies and more than 1 deck. just cause that or any other strategy hurts ppl's favorite decks doesn't make it bad. i sure know i don't complain when some1's strategy devistatingly beats mine - i look for another strategy. otherwise i could start making a list and bomb this category w/ suggested "balances"

as far as the uncounterable part - that's only if used at the exact same time - but i figured that was the nature of mods - to be uncounterable

and sXeAndriex, i've never seen a comic where she got ahold of shadowforce heart from another comic - so as long as the cards are all mixed up flavor goes out the window - (i've never seen a kelar and crossroad in the same comic either)

DemonCowboy Wrote:if that's the case should a chimera deck be able to devistate most decks? or a charmshielder deck? or a well put together TDQ deck? maybe a good rush deck? or any of the other strategies played that work well against most decks?

With the exclusion of Charmsheilder as that's a bad example since it's far from devistating, no, not outside of tournaments. Though to be fair Chimeras are way easier to destroy and take a lot more effort to use than Sheena. Rush is near impossible to destroy without tearing apart the game limb from lime and TDQ probably could use some balancing of its own in my opinion.

DemonCowboy Wrote:instead of nerfing the combo (although i CAN see and concede to the shadowforce heart) maybe people need more strategies and more than 1 deck.

I have about twenty very different decks and only one or two can efficiently destroy the combo.

DemonCowboy Wrote:just cause that or any other strategy hurts ppl's favorite decks doesn't make it bad. i sure know i don't complain when some1's strategy devistatingly beats mine - i look for another strategy. otherwise i could start making a list and bomb this category w/ suggested "balances"

I think you're missing the point here. Most veterans have many many decks that they are happy to use. The point is that this combo destroys a great majority of them and thus can be considered broken.

DemonCowboy Wrote:as far as the uncounterable part - that's only if used at the exact same time - but i figured that was the nature of mods - to be uncounterable

If you're planning on using the combo, you will play them at the exact same time if you're smart about it and aren't in dire need of the card in question.

DemonCowboy Wrote:and sXeAndriex, i've never seen a comic where she got ahold of shadowforce heart from another comic - so as long as the cards are all mixed up flavor goes out the window - (i've never seen a kelar and crossroad in the same comic either)

This has already been covered. Sheena shouldn't be able to have massive attack because Sheena isn't meant to be offensive. It's relating Sheena back to herself, not to Shadowforce Heart or any other specific card.

bubbleman2 Wrote:

DemonCowboy Wrote:and sXeAndriex, i've never seen a comic where she got ahold of shadowforce heart from another comic - so as long as the cards are all mixed up flavor goes out the window - (i've never seen a kelar and crossroad in the same comic either)

This has already been covered. Sheena shouldn't be able to have massive attack because Sheena isn't meant to be offensive. It's relating Sheena back to herself, not to Shadowforce Heart or any other specific card.

my point is this is a game, NOT the comic and the comics are mixed up so yes there will be cards that change the nature and abilities of the characters printed on them - and my thought on this is as follows - and? i don't care about the characters when playing the game - i want to play the game to it's potential.

bubbleman2 Wrote:

DemonCowboy Wrote:as far as the uncounterable part - that's only if used at the exact same time - but i figured that was the nature of mods - to be uncounterable

If you're planning on using the combo, you will play them at the exact same time if you're smart about it and aren't in dire need of the card in question.

which does happen frequently

bubbleman2 Wrote:

DemonCowboy Wrote:just cause that or any other strategy hurts ppl's favorite decks doesn't make it bad. i sure know i don't complain when some1's strategy devistatingly beats mine - i look for another strategy. otherwise i could start making a list and bomb this category w/ suggested "balances"

I think you're missing the point here. Most veterans have many many decks that they are happy to use. The point is that this combo destroys a great majority of them and thus can be considered broken.

boo hoo a new idea was introduced and the veterans can't cope - well time to revise stale decks in my opinion not complain and whine about it

bubbleman2 Wrote:

DemonCowboy Wrote:instead of nerfing the combo (although i CAN see and concede to the shadowforce heart) maybe people need more strategies and more than 1 deck.

I have about twenty very different decks and only one or two can efficiently destroy the combo.

well that sounds like a personal problem concerning YOUR style of play, different people have different styles, just cause YOURS can't cope w/ another person's is any reason to hurt theirs over it. i certainly don't when my style gets torn to shreds (which looking at my stats happens frequently)

bubbleman2 Wrote:

DemonCowboy Wrote:if that's the case should a chimera deck be able to devistate most decks? or a charmshielder deck? or a well put together TDQ deck? maybe a good rush deck? or any of the other strategies played that work well against most decks?

With the exclusion of Charmsheilder as that's a bad example since it's far from devistating, no, not outside of tournaments. Though to be fair Chimeras are way easier to destroy and take a lot more effort to use than Sheena. Rush is near impossible to destroy without tearing apart the game limb from lime and TDQ probably could use some balancing of its own in my opinion.

yes charmshielder was a bad example i was just trying to list examples quickly - and that combo only takes effort for the decks that have trouble w/ it there are a good few decks i've played that didn't have much issue w/ it - and had a much easier time than i've had playing w/ chimeras

I don't feel like doing another big quote but here are my responses as
follows:

1) Some care about flavor, you don't, that's fine I suppose.
2) Not if you build the a deck around the combo but either way, that's a weakness with all two card combos and a very minor one at that. It seems a bit nit picky to go any further into that.
3) I don't really get how your point relates to mine here.
4) My opinion is based off my experience, as yours is based off of yours. Now your just being a tad hypocritical.
5) The point is that you have to dedicate a lot more of your deck space (if not all of it) to make an efficient Chimera deck most of the time, where as if you want to you can just toss the Sheena combo into any light deck that's short on splash.

Anyways, we appear to just have way different opinions on the matter. I don't think continuing this is going to go very far so at this point I'll just agree to disagree. Feel free to respond to my post and get the last word in if you want though. :P

On flavor- how you feel about it is inconsequential. It's an inherent part of the game's intended design and we have to respect that. It's the same reason we couldn't rebalance... say Wrench System to produce a gremlin token whenever the opponent plays a spell. It would help the card, but it wouldn't fit the card. The balance codex has all this stuff.

As for why this violates Sheena's flavor (a short version, it's covered in full earlier in the thread): it's not that her stealing Tony Stark's origin is unflavorful, it's that it violates the reason her NPC exists with the abilities it has. They were designed to approximate certain factors from the comic and certain mods, as they came out after WotW, could not have been anticipated during her inception. Blah, blah, blah, it's really a separate argument from the balance argument for changing it but belongs in this thread regardless. I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of it (as it appeared before some people started posting here) and to point out that "not caring about flavor" doesn't work.

just cause of the ":p" i will...lol

1) no i don't - some do and that's their style of play nothing wrong w/ it but not something that should b dictated to those that aren't worried about it that they have to
2)even building the deck around the combo the card shuffler isn't always the best - unless that's the ONLY monster u plan on having in the field
3) the point is that when a combo is introduced (apparently new) that the vets don't like they shouldn't want to smash it just because it makes them have to think again
4)actually i simply didn't see the need to mention how manoy other styles of play have torn me to shreds - i won't complain though
5) if just thrown in as splash then the chances of u getting the combo and getting it right are GREATLY reduced

there all that just cause of u'r ....lol - i see the humor in it at least whoever doesn't *shrug*

In case it wasn't apparent, DemonCowboy's stance is the same rhetoric Dav1000 is famous for: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Just like with Exile and Dav1000, this is a matter of a difference of opinion about the meta game and I'm surprised it took this long for that to be realized.

Anyway, I've done some testing and here are my thoughts on the combo:
It's effective, but not much more so than say TR-32 Variable + Instability, Tesla + Insta/Shadow, Prince Far'thin + Spacewarp Drive, Whizorb + Sheild Belt, etc. Basically, it's 1 monster that is unholy powerful thanks to either the ability to circumvent the immunities that normally prevent boosting or the value added to a card when combined with a mod thanks to its natural abilities. Mods in general present this problem, it's not unique to simply just Sheena + Insta/Shadow. Heck, Whizorb + Shadowforce is almost just as powerful with a minor sniping ability exchanged for Ability immune.

Still, all the comparisons I used are technically weaker than this one specific combo. Far'thin can't attack monsters/defend without taking damage, Tesla is not Spell/Ability Immune, Variable can take damage and loses its immunities while in robot mode, etc.
I wouldn't object to making Sheena's attack a constant 0 due to its lack of a weakness however minor like the other cards have (note that global damage/destruction affects the other examples just as much as Sheena but they also have at least 1 other weakness on top of that).

I would really like to discuss more on what roles mods are to play in CMC though that would probably be better in its own thread rather than this one.

I'm going to change my vote to giving her a constant attack of 0; I'm finding the arguments in favour of doing so to be much more convincing than the arguments against.

31-Brick Wall; 34,306,307,308,309,642-NPC; 71-Fog of Confusion; 267-Force Field; 329,657-AN-52; 375-Mind Control Ray; 587-Jack Hologram; 620-Dr Amp; 862-EY-12 Spy Satellite; 863-EY-40 Censor Station; 864-EY-554 Comms Satellite; 930-Mirage Mirage; 932-Shell; 968-Surrounding Fog. All 20 cards I could find that, according to flavor, should never, under any circumstance, be able to deal any damage to anything. Most of them more so then Sheena. About half are from comics and can't deal any damage in them, like Sheena, and the rest are inanimate objects and walls. I call for giving all 21 of these cards constant attack of 0 for flavor reasons.

I few of those I could imagine with attack. So long as the walls can't attack, I don't see why that can't be buffed and deal a more damage. A lot of these others probably shouldn't have attack but they don't combo well with attack boosters so I would say this doesn't really affect them.

Well, I guess you've never tried to punch a brick wall before. Hurts like the dickens. As for everything else, I'd have to say I agree. But, I don't think we should go for a mass balance at this point. It might just be my craziness talking, but We should try to balance Sheena before we move on to trying to fix those other cards.

This is about balance; the change being flavourful is justification for accepting it, not a reason to change other cards that are already balanced just because they also could be argued not to be intended to damage anything.

I can imagine planting a Katana in a brick wall so that it damages monsters that run into it. Likewise, I could hide it like a trap in the midst of a surrounding fog, so that unsuspecting monsters might walk on it.

Dr Amp does do damage, though.

But can you give a brick wall or a fog bank a cybernetic heart and expect it to start killing stuff?