Combo: Junkyard + Mana Explosion

Dangit, Serith found a way to work with the thought I was trying to suggest before.

Yeah, 55 cost will make it impossible to pull off the combo infinitely, at least until a way to decrease spell costs by rolls around, if it ever does. If we just want to mess with this combo, that'd be the thing to change. Nacho is correct about the mana restrictions, though, unless you have a way to infinitely discard/use up the other extra cards in your hand without spending more than 22 at most. Hm, at current cost you could sneak in an Arm Breaker each cycle at will, couldn't you? Does Mutual Disarmament fail if your opponent has no cards?

I'm a little ambivalent about Mana Explosion going to A speed, but I don't find it out of line. Clickwar creation with it is rare, but it can happen.

You apparently missed my last post where I pointed out the combo is still infinite with Kelar Moon Dance and Dark Ritual (plus a messengite mural on the field if you want to be able to cast solar flare afterwards.

And I *still* don't think it needs a nerf.

How does this deck concept compare to similarly sized Flesh Render decks?

Using Bizarre Bazaars for sac mana or do you want to restrict it to cards that can be relatively easily obtained?

With Bizarre Bazaars for sac mana, you can get what you need by turn 4 pretty regularly (so 10 card deck or so). Without, you'll probably be slowed down to turn 5-6.

In comparison, a speedy Render deck can still kill turn 3 on a very lucky draw. More consistently on turn 4, turn 5-6 if your opponent can throw a few weenies down in the way.

This Junkyard combo is slightly more vulnerable since you're giving your opponent 10/10/10 mana which can cause problems if they play any draw/counter spells in their deck.

The render combo is more affected by the more common anti-creature methods though (Stasis Field, etc.).

I agree in small deck (under 15) this combo is broken but so is skitter and creator, honor borrower and kelar zombie, and a number of combo plus fortune or bust. I don't think nerfing cards that a balance in mid game because small deck can abuse them is the right way to go

�ルノ Wrote:Nacho is correct about the mana restrictions, though, unless you have a way to infinitely discard/use up the other extra cards in your hand without spending more than 22 at most. Hm, at current cost you could sneak in an Arm Breaker each cycle at will, couldn't you? Does Mutual Disarmament fail if your opponent has no cards?

The problem's not getting cards out of your hand, or mana restrictions (I don't remember ever mentioning them), it's that the combo is only guaranteed to work if your hand + your graveyard < 9 cards. After that, Junkyard starts having a chance of not getting you all 3 cards, braking the combo. That means you get 4 cards between the two of them not used in the combo. A normal 30 card deck can't ensure that it's hand+grave will only be 8 cards by the time it gets the 4 cards and 6/6/6, so the combo's not reliable outside a small deck.

Serith Wrote:Giving Junkyard a one mana increase (to 55) will kill the combo, and won't affect the card too much otherwise.

That's what I'll support.

No, junkyard is completely fine as is.  And it will affect this card a lot more than just outside of this combo.  I would know since I use it in a couple of my decks and end up playing it with the minimum 4 most of the time.  I don't think making a card more expensive to stop one type of infinite combo is the right way to balance a card, when it's perfectly fine outside that one combo.

You know, maybe for CMC we just need to code a rule that the minimum deck size has to be 15 cards or something =P  (Would it even be possible to code that?  Like, not be able to set a primary deck if it's under 15 cards, or just not take challenges.)  That seems like the easiest way to stop so many broken decks, since in my opinion anything under 20 seems pretty broken to me.

but that would ruin testing decks

Not really, 15 cards is still small enough for deck testing I'd say, but it'd be a lot harder to make consistently broken decks in my opinion. Most of the time in deck testing you need quite a few turns for mana anyway.

I'll go on the record of noting that accidentally or even purposefully playing a 0 card deck would be impossible if there was at least some sort of minimum imposed.

I'll also say that this is by no means a small change and, if it ends up being seriously considered, should be well thought out and rationalized for a specific minimum card number before being presented to web.

I'll also note somewhat randomly that given the nerf Life or Death got that we do, in fact, care about extremely small decks that create short matches that tend to be all-or-nothing deals.

thats more or less because everyother person was playing LOD farming

Vincent Wrote:You know, maybe for CMC we just need to code a rule that the minimum deck size has to be 15 cards or something =P (Would it even be possible to code that? Like, not be able to set a primary deck if it's under 15 cards, or just not take challenges.) That seems like the easiest way to stop so many broken decks, since in my opinion anything under 20 seems pretty broken to me.

webrunner managed it for Gridiron Generals.

I like having my 10 card combo kill deck that I can pull out if I ever feel like it (which I almost never do). Don't take that away from me =.=

If the issue is simply a few people who consistently play ridiculously small decks, then don't play them, the same way you wouldn't play against someone who farms points by starting up a game and immediately surrendering. It's very easy to pick and choose who you want to play. Take Whomper for example. He basically refuses to play me in any casual setting no matter what deck I use (for reasons that may or may not pertain to this thread).

I like min deck size as an informal rule of casual play rather than having it hard coded into the actual game.