MOD issues - putting flavor and balance issues in their propper place

OK, I'm starting this to address the REAL reason for balance issues (complaints) both that I'm aware of and for others to post ones that I'm not aware of.

I guess I'll post in the most general terms first that way with a little luck it can be all inclusive for all changes needed.

As for my opinion on mods in general, though probably not shared, mods are the most dangerous cards in the game because they're uncounterable, irreversible and in some cases difficult to work around. I think some way to get around this would probably make everyone happier.

A few suggestions on this: (without regard to programming issues I'm not versed in java)

• Give cards the ability to have multiple mods - would make it hard for all mods to be played at once giving the opponent a chance to add negative mods to counter other mods
• The ability for mods to be changed when one played upon a card that already has a mod (like changing the location)
• Cards that remove or destroy mods
  

Well that's my ideas for in general global stuff.

The first and foremost single issue on my mind is issues with shadowforce heart/instability with certain cards that changes the nature of the cards and in some cases makes certain ones difficult for most people to handle.

Shadowforce heart and instability BOTH have the ability to give cards that aren't supposed to have damage capabilities capabilities to do damage - and in some cases making some that some people say it is unflavorful to have them attack have the ability to do so attack.

Shadowforce heart makes cards already difficult for some to kill difficult for many to kill.

Now that this post is up and the reason for it from another thread let's see what transpires here.

oh god my poor bleeding eyes

Suggesting new cards or changes to the system isn't.... how balance works. It violates two of the fundamental rules of balancing. Please, please just read the stuff I keep mentioning, The Balance Codex especially. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, it's just for your own good and stickied at the top of the balance forum for a reason.

No one has suggested that adding modifiers to cards violates flavor.

The main issue with stat boosting mods isn't that they make cards stronger (stat boosting spells already do that), it's that they do this while providing two large benefits: they make creatures modifier proof and are uncounterable while doing so. The only real problem with them is that a few might be undercosted. There's really no huge issue, no huge controversy, these things just don't really exist. I'm going to get drunk now. I don't drink, but I think I'll find a way.

well codex be damned that's still where i see the issue sits.

Suggesting changes that will fundamentally change parts of the game doesn't really help. I don't think Webrunner is going to accept any of those changes (as mentioned in the balance codex) and with good reason. Mods simply aren't meant to work in the ways you suggested, that's just something that you as a CMC player must learn to deal with.

Edit: This might be better placed in the card table forum.

and it will keep causing issues like the ones already going on. i'm not saying i can't deal w/ it but this i've suggested to fix the flaw at it's source instead of running around changing almost EVERY other card in the game that spawns an issue from said flaw - i could care less if it gets fixed or not but this is where the problem lies, now it's been said. it can get ignored or addressed - it's webrunner's game it's thier choice

No cards in the game are troubled by mods (at least none that I can think of other than Sheena...sort of) in the slightest. Sheena is being changed because she's not supposed to have any attack. The card design should hint at that if nothing else. The fact that mods do can give any monster attack, though key to the Sheena balance, doesn't affect the game as a whole as much as you seem to think. And like I said, suggesting things that you should know aren't going to happen doesn't help much.

force field shouldn't have any attack, it gets attack w/ SFH, though just a s a defensive measure since it says can't attack, but none the less it does gain ability to do damage - and if i looked i could probably find others

I have no problem with mods. The only one I find a bit annoying is stasis field but its not broken.

i never said that was broken - this thread is more in response to another thread

Force Field is affected by spells which shows that it was designed keeping the fact that it may gain attack in some cases in mind. Sheena is the only card that was designed with zero attack and spell/ability immune. Anything that was designed before MC came out and without both spell/ability immune and zero attack, was designed keeping the fact that it may gain/have attack in some cases in mind. Also, anything that is not from a comic of some sort has minimal flavor to go by, only original intent of the card and so another requirement is that it has to be from a comic in order for flavor on this level to be taken into consideration when balancing the card.

DemonCowboy: There is absolutely no way that a proposal that changes the entire game to fix a problem is going to be accepted by webrunner, even if he had the time to implement it. If you want to help make any progress with this, you'll have to accept that.

Anyway, I don't see the problem being nearly as big as you're making it out to be. The basic problem is solely with balance, not flavour. It's fairly simple: There are cards with abilities that mean that certain kinds of targetted spells or abilities (boosting in Sheena's case) would create unfair combos. Prior to Mechanical Chaos, (Spell Immune) and (Ability Immune) were enough to prevent that from happening, but the addition of mods in MC opens up possible abuses. Here's a list of all cards with both (Spell Immune) and (Ability Immune):

Fog of Confusion
First Avrillian
Star Whelp
webrunner
Prince Far'thin
Wizard (War)
Sheena (NPC)
NPC (War-Vendor)
Cake Gigas Fanirar
TR-32 Variable (ship)
Mechazor L

Of these, Star Whelp, webrunner, Prince Far'thin, Cake Gigas Fanirar, and Mechazor L do not have the abilities for this reason; they're just on them to make them more powerful.

The rest:

Fog of Confusion: Can be used with Open Heart so its high life can be abused with cards such as Gorthox and Battery of Souls. Potentially powerful, but not necessarily overpowered given that it's a three card combo.
First Avrillian: The first issue was Soulsphere, which was solved by shifting its stats to be much more life oriented. Following this, Life and Life or Death allowed it to be brought into play during the sac phase so that its high sac could be used. This was initially solved by changing its abilities to make it completely uncomboable aside from Open Heart, but later was brought back to its original form with lower sac.
Wizard (War): High attack, Lifebar, and Entrenching mean that it's not likely to take more than one damage per round, and a healer or other reusable life increasing card would usually be capable of letting it survive indefinitely. Open Heart can enable this, but also leaves it vulnerable to monster destruction.
Sheena (NPC): I don't think I need to explain this one.
NPC (War-Vendor): Potentially dangerous if there were a way to remove its (Can't Attack), though currently the only way to do so would be spiking, and as it has no activated ability, only an opponent's White Holiday Light would be capable of this. Currently it sees play with Arm Cannon.
TR-32 Variable (ship): Oddly enough, this one was part of MC rather than coming out before it. Anyway, the attack quadrupling effect is quite nasty when combined with attack boosters. Right now Morale, Instability, and Open Heart can accomplish this (unless I'm mistaken, Exo-Suit and Shadowforce Heart's bonuses aren't counted in the quadrupling effect)

As far as solutions that require work on webrunner's part, I think having a (Mod Immune) for cards such as these would be simplest (though I'm not saying all the ones I listed need it). The three (Immune) abilities together could be abbrevriated as (Untargetable) to save text space.

Given the small number of problem cards, though, I think that at least until the next expansion, they can easily enough be dealt with individually, without needing webrunner to code anything new.

DemonCowboy Wrote:force field shouldn't have any attack, it gets attack w/ SFH, though just a s a defensive measure since it says can't attack, but none the less it does gain ability to do damage - and if i looked i could probably find others

Out of 16 cards with the (Can't Attack) keyword, only six of them have zero attack:

Zero attack: Brick Wall, Fog of Confusion, Force Field, Shell, Symbiotic Structure, Surrounding Fog
>0 attack: Asteroid Belt, Mount Mason, Paladin Barricade, Slime Wall, NPC (War-Vendor), Starship Blockade, Magma Wall, Spore Flower, Meteor, Meteorite

Just an fyi. Oh, and as a flavour point (as I know how much you love flavour), it probably could do damage (the same force field).

And of the three suggestions, the only one I can see having a chance of happening is a card with the ability to remove/destroy modifiers, but that won't likely happen until a future set anyway (probably more Forged Hammer than Masterwork Tools I'd imagine).

Edit: Maybe Shadowforce Heart is just too strong for its cost, and needs a nerf?

m^3 Wrote:Maybe Shadowforce Heart is just too strong for its cost, and needs a nerf?

I've been quietly thinking that for a while myself. Compared to Shadow Stalker it's an extra +15/+15, double the raw cost/maybe 1.7x converted cost, uncounterable, your-turn only (with no undizzy requirement), gets around Ability Immune, doesn't have monster vulnerabilities or mindgames/advantages, gives constant-attack resistance to attack lowering (i.e. Miasma Factory), doesn't multiply with Chaos Generals or Singularity Cannon, and has a life maintanenence. For boosting, I think the pros heavily outweigh the cons, and Shadowforce Heart is often a lot more brutal than an unanticipated Shadow Stalker.

EXP in a can trades a little more surprise value for a significantly smaller stat boost, but is still stopped by Spell Immune and completely fails if countered. It's no wonder it never sees play - it's half as efficient as a single Shadowforce Heart!

I'd be interested in seeing a Shadowforce Heart thread simply because I'm curious of what other people think about the card. It's easily the most complained about mod, with Stasis Field coming in a close second.

Though, I will add the notion that it may not be that Shadowforce is too strong. Rather, might be that the other boosters are two weak, or a combination of both one being too strong and the other too weak. I'm not quite sure where I sit on the issue, thus my nefarious reason for wanting a thread.

Fire The Armorer!. The tally turned out to be 1 person supporting a boost and 6 saying they were fine as is. Of course, the context of that thread was boosts, so maybe "fine as is" was the ceiling of acceptance (i.e. it would only go down from "keep them as is").