Synergy in CMC

i like kemmit and meck how they are myself...

Noodle Wrote:You know what? Yeah. This was meant to be read as "NOT A NUMBERS CHANGE THREAD, CMC NEED SYNERGY"

Sorry Noodle but not every card is made to be a synergy card. Synergy abilities generally have a theme in mind like Lucinda's -att/+life ability for Clerics or Kelar Manamancer's gain ability to go along with Kelar's plethora of high-cost monsters (Ko'near being a prime example).
It's really difficult to just tack on a synergy ability out of the blue (hi).

Blue_Elite Wrote:

Noodle Wrote:You know what? Yeah. This was meant to be read as "NOT A NUMBERS CHANGE THREAD, CMC NEED SYNERGY"

Sorry Noodle but not every card is made to be a synergy card. Synergy abilities generally have a theme in mind like Lucinda's -att/+life ability for Clerics or Kelar Manamancer's gain ability to go along with Kelar's plethora of high-cost monsters (Ko'near being a prime example).
It's really difficult to just tack on a synergy ability out of the blue (hi).

But is there any real reason other than "I don't like the idea" of it we can't put it on to improve the card? Besides flavor-reasons, I'm fairly certain that the suggestion for Venomic Dragon was flavorful, as is my second suggestion for Skeletal Soldier(+attack for other skeletons.)

Also, K-Army Guy needs an improved ability, which is already synergistic. And when we gave him a synergy ability he originally didn't have anything. This is why I'm curious, I want the double-standards dropped.

Also, Norlaan. He desperately needs the boost, what's wrong with improving his synergy?

tl;dr We've done it before, and we made it work.(Some of them at least. K-Army Guy sucks.) We should be capable of doing it again. and most of this post is about IMPROVING already synergistic cards.

Also everyone seems to like the idea for Shining Dragon. Which wasn't originally intended to have any synergy.

Noodle Wrote:But is there any real reason other than "I don't like the idea" of it we can't put it on to improve the card?

The Balance Codex Wrote:If changing numbers is enough to balance a card, you don't add or remove abilities.

Ultros Wrote:

Noodle Wrote:But is there any real reason other than "I don't like the idea" of it we can't put it on to improve the card?

The Balance Codex Wrote:If changing numbers is enough to balance a card, you don't add or remove abilities.

oh hai

...Which was changed because it was agreed that a numbers change wouldn't be enough to balance it. Your point?

But a numbers change would be enough to balance it. I'm pretty sure changing it from zero to 1/1/1 is a numbers changed.

Or 60 life activation cost.

Really difficult, not impossible. We did the 1-costers after some 200+ posts of debate. I'm not even sure how we pulled it off but we managed.

I personally liked your general idea for Venomic of adding a poison ability but found your specific one too powerful. That's generally the problem with adding abilities; there's little basis for going with one idea over another and just about everyone has their own opinion on what the best ability is. Again, really difficult but not impossible. It's also why simple number changes are generally preferred (aside from not wanting to change a card's concept entirely which isn't the issue here).

As for Norlaan I just think with the space limitations you can't do much for his ability without removing the previous one. If you've got an idea that will fit (and isn't healing for the personal reasons I already gave about healing conflicting with the premise of the Follower type), then go for it. I just personally think you and anyone else are going to fail and that because the card does need a boost that a numbers change is the way to go for that reason. By no means am I discouraging you to try to boost/alter (but not outright change) cards, just saying that realistically you're going to have a large number of failures compared to successes and as such might consider simpler routes for unbalanced cards.

EDIT: The problem with WYBM in that thread is that we, quite literally, forgot the card as the flavor text states. masa is correcting a flavor issue but as is being pointed out in that thread is not correcting a major problem with the card (that infernal Landing combo).

Noodle Wrote:But a numbers change would be enough to balance it. I'm pretty sure changing it from zero to 1/1/1 is a numbers changed.

...And whether that's enough to balance it is what's being discussed. Your point?

Ultros Wrote:

Noodle Wrote:But a numbers change would be enough to balance it. I'm pretty sure changing it from zero to 1/1/1 is a numbers changed.

...And whether that's enough to balance it is what's being discussed. Your point?

So..

Ultros Wrote:...Which was changed because it was agreed that a numbers change wouldn't be enough to balance it. Your point?

First we agreed. What's being discussed is the agreement? Also I'm not so sure I enjoy the "Your point?" endings. It feels like I'm being belittled.

It's because I don't understand your point; you're referring to a completely different card where the codex has been and is being followed, to try and justify not following the codex here. If you want to add abilities, you need to explain why a numbers change isn't enough here, not why it isn't enough on a completely different card.

Ultros Wrote:It's because I don't understand your point; you're referring to a completely different card where the codex has been and is being followed, to try and justify not following the codex here. If you want to add abilities, you need to explain why a numbers change isn't enough here, not why it isn't enough on a completely different card.

Wait, what? Where did I say that? You quoted a post from the balance codex that my thread isn't following, I linked you to another thread where we're adding another ability instead of a numbers change that will fix a broken card. You told me it was agreed that a numbers change won't fix it, I told you it would.

Then you told me that it was being discussed. I'm fucking confused. But anyways, if you seriously need it explained why a numbers change WON'T fix these cards, then I'll gladly write up another long-winded post explaining. But not right now.

ongoing debate about synergy aside, Venomic Dragon could really use a major boost, seing how crappy he is compared to ~12 mana beatsticks. Something more then just 5 attack. Meilar, I-Karn, both Reckless Abandons, Elliot, and to a lesser extent 12Dmana Wizard all have enough attack to kill most anything Venomic's 95% ToD can kill, about as much life as Venomic, and can actually hurt your opponent with direct attacks too, plus some of them have minor abilities. Keeping in line with the idea that he should be a creature killer instead of a player killer, I suggest DLG: 70%.

Let's drop the WYBM discussion here; it's irrelevant to this balance discussion, and there was no point in linking it in the first place

Noodle Wrote:But anyways, if you seriously need it explained why a numbers change WON'T fix these cards, then I'll gladly write up another long-winded post explaining.

Sorry, but that's exactly what's required; for each card that you're proposing adding an ability to, you need to explain why it wouldn't be balanced with a change to cost/stats/etc. That should be clear from the codex; if we're not changing abilities when number changes will do, then an explanation of why a number change won't do is what's required if an ability change is being proposed.

I really would like to see a poison ability for Venomic. It just goes well with the name. Could do Noodle's proposal but limit it to the 5% chance that ToD doesn't work.

For Skeletal Soldier I'll say that if Kemmit is a good comparison, than his second life life cost should be something like 5-10 life. Rather than debate whether it should be 5, 7, 8 or 10, giving it some sort of synergy ability where the life loss is reduced by 3 for each skeleton in play when Soldier is in play could work out quite nicely.
Destroyed: Gain 3 life for each Skeleton you control
Basically it makes the second life cost 0 life if you manage to maintain 5 Skeletons in play when Soldier dies.

These I don't think Noodle has to explain due to obviousness or player support:
Lowly Slime, Lumi(just adding a type), Shining Dragon(player support for reason of "I doubt another cost decrease or..."), Magmite Soldier(numbers change anyway)

Might I add that the proposed change for Venomic Dragon would make it a whole lot less useable outside of dragon decks?

Edit: As Blue originally suggested, it'd make more sense to just make it poison the monster on the occasions it doesn't kill it outright. Though having the number of poison counters equal the number of dragons in play makes no sense at all.

Lowly Slime:Agree with suggested balance. I wouldn't want to see any stat increases on a weenie like Lowly Slime, so a numbers change probably isn't going to work here.

Skeletal Soldier: Fine as is. Maybe give it +3 life for each Skeleton you control but I really don't want to see it gain any more attack. I think this works better than most number changes I can think of. Again, I'm also fine with it staying as is.

Lumi: Another hero is always nice.

K-Army Guy: Fine as is. I've used him to great affect with Zero-G and Agent of Mantis and he's not bad at all in a weenie rush soldier deck.

Shining Dragon: Lower it's cost by one light mana and it should be fine. No need to add a new ability.

Norlaan: End turn heal ability works. He already has follower synergies, so I personally don't mind making them stronger.

Magmite Soldier: Never used one, probably never will use one, never even played against one. I really don't care what happens to it so long as it's not completely ridiculous.

Venomic Dragon: I've use this card affectively before, but I'll admit it's a little underpowered. A one mana cost decrease should be fine.

Edit: Forgot about Wrench System. Though after that last thread I really don't know what to do with this one. I'll just see what others have to say throughout the thread before forming an opinion.

Noodle, Noodle, Noodle. Joy.

I actually agree with Ultros' point earlier: having abilities that rely on (almost) only using cards of a particular type can be very constraining.

Anyway:

Lowly Slime
Hmm. 6/6 is a bit small a boost to cancel out of on the off chance it's threatened by a spell or ability, but it shouldn't become an absurd stat booster alongside temporary stat changes, either. 75% sounds fine.

Skeletal Soldier
A little weak, but I don't think synergy is the way to go here. I could see either a small life boost (25) or a sac boost in case it becomes a liability. Reducing the second life cost to 10 would also be a significant boost... that might work better, or would it be too much?

Lumi
Really needs a thread of her own. Hero's fine if Web's okay with it. Also, lower her ability activation cost and/or play cost.

K-Army Guy
Just fine. An effective 1-cost glass cannon, with an ability to help counteract healing, lifebar, or slower threats to his continued existence (and then returns to your hand without having to get extras!). If anything, Melrak Follower is overpowered among the 1-costers (mostly for having enough life to occasionally survive a hit and growing while he still attacks): most of the rest are OK.

Wrench System
Needs its own discussion, and suggestions/clearing by Web. Hand seeing is pretty worthless. This has been a long-standing problem.

Shining Dragon
Pretty trashy, especially with the Scorpion comparison being mentioned. Blockdizzying via combat really doesn't help much, since you'd rather only combat if you'd destroy the victim anyway. I think the ability needs to be reworked, though whether it's through synergy or just making it a more useful offshoot of the "shining" concept is a different matter. (Ahem.)

Norlaan
Change to "all other followers gain (Focus)"? Similar concept, but more powerful and helps the beatsticky nature of existing Followers more than the current version. Maybe a small cost drop, seeing as he has the same stats as a Rust Dragon, which retails for significantly less (disadvantage or no).

Venomic Dragon
Adding a poison spread to its ability would help, though I don't see why it wouldn't poison dragons (rather than "non-poisonous creatures" which isn't coded/in existence, or "All other creatures" or "all creatures but Venomic Dragons"). Maybe "When Venomic Dragon damages your opponent directly, all of their monsters are poisoned for one turn"?

Magnemite Solder
Soldier type for obvious name and minor synergies, +5 attack.

And sorry, but introducing specific synergies does need a good reason.

Now let's see how many new flamewar posts have cropped up since I started writing this!

bubbleman2 Wrote:Venomic Dragon: I've use this card affectively before, but I'll admit it's a little underpowered. A one mana cost decrease should be fine.

Except in almost every possible situation it will still be worse then other ~11 mana monsters. Expensive beatsticks can already kill most everyone with their huge attacks, Venomic just can't hurt players. I'd at least like to see a 2 mana cost drop. He should be balanced at 10 mana.

edit: And giving it a 5% chance to poison monsters is one of the smallest boosts there is. I like Mus' idea of poisoning all your opponent's monsters though, but I'd prefer it to activate when he hit a monster, like Malatak.

@Nacho: The thing is, I use it in a deck specially designed for it. I toss him in with high attack and low life monsters as well as healing monsters (three Bogeys...yeah). I use Shadowforce Heart to raise my monster's attack, and I use Venomic Dragon to pretty much kill all of my opponent's monsters. It's not a throw in card, but it is a good card if you use it right. Also, giving up 40 attack for 20 life and ToD 95% is way too good, so if Dash is a proper comparison (probably isn't but I can't think of a better one), then 10 is too low. Even if Dash gets a small ability, I wouldn't want to see Venomic Dragon at the same cost as him.