Soulsphere [Nerf]

Pro-nerf. ALL effects are weak to effect Ds and Counters so that's not a viable argument in the slightest. And why should I have to pack Slime Valleys in every deck, just to counter one card? It's easier to play Soulspheres than it is to destroy them, and far easier to utilize them than it is to counter them. I think the card warrants a cost increase. Monster are the cornerstone of CMC, any card that effectively counters them, no questions asked (bearing common things that most, if not all cards of the same type are weak against), is broken unless there's a *huge* downside attached. Soulsphere's downside is just too easy to work around for it to be balanced. Sure, it makes the card only usable is a few deck types, but in those deck types, the downside doesn't phase the player *nearly* as much as it should. It's not just beasticks this card kills. It kills almost any monster with ease.

For the love of god, LEAVE IT ALONE.

Just because it actually fething counters beatsticks, does not make it broken. It's drawback is not some... minor thing.

It's FINE.

Merged into the previous Soulsphere thread.

Monsieur Scout disagrees with you in that regard, Chris. And you too, Ultros. So not merged.

Nacho Wrote:I hate both these arguments. "This card slaughters beatstick decks, so we have to keep it even though it only slaughters them because it's so broken that it slaughters almost all decks" and "This effect isn't broken, there are 2 cards that counter it, and you can use effect D on it if it gets too annoying."
Soulsphere kills all decks that use monsters, not just beatsticks. no matter what your feeling is on beatsticks, you can't just say the card needs to be kept as is because it counters them along with the rest of the monsters.

I don't see how it's bad.

Effect Counter > Soulsphere > Creatures > Effect Counter

Simply because it's an actual viable counter to abusive monster decks does not make it broke.

Dizziers(both creature and effect), Effect Destruction, and CC are all counters to soulsphere decks. Frankly, it's no different to a stall deck in that, it's good if you don't run counters, but otherwise it's average.

ChrisAsmadi Wrote:Simply because it's an actual viable counter to abusive monster decks does not make it broke.

I agree. If it were an actual viable counter to abusive monster decks I'd say it was fine as is. It's not though. it's an actual viable counter to all monster decks. It's a viable counter to sniper decks. It's a viable counter to control decks. It's a viable counter to combo decks. It's a viable counter to tribal decks. It's a viable counter to any deck based around one or more monsters. And that's the problem.

ChrisAsmadi Wrote:Dizziers(both creature and effect), Effect Destruction, and CC are all counters to soulsphere decks. Frankly, it's no different to a stall deck in that, it's good if you don't run counters, but otherwise it's average..

If you need to be running specific counters against a card for it not to be broken, it's broken.

Nacho Wrote:

ChrisAsmadi Wrote:Dizziers(both creature and effect), Effect Destruction, and CC are all counters to soulsphere decks. Frankly, it's no different to a stall deck in that, it's good if you don't run counters, but otherwise it's average..

If you need to be running specific counters against a card for it not to be broken, it's broken.

Dizziers and Effect Destruction are hardly specific counters against a single card.

EDIT:

Nacho Wrote:I agree. If it were an actual viable counter to abusive monster decks I'd say it was fine as is. It's not though. it's an actual viable counter to all monster decks. It's a viable counter to sniper decks. It's a viable counter to control decks. It's a viable counter to combo decks. It's a viable counter to tribal decks. It's a viable counter to any deck based around one or more monsters. And that's the problem.

This amuses me, actually. By your logic, Confusing Controls is equally broken. Why? It's a viable counter to all effect decks. It's a viable counter to soulsphere decks. It's a viable counter to mana furnace decks. It's a viable counter to chroniton gun/backup bouncing decks. It's a viable counter to Time Waster decks. It's a viable counter to Gloopzilla decks. It's a viable counter to Nate/George decks. It's a viable counter to any deck based around one or more effects. And that's not a problem.

ChrisAsmadi Wrote:This amuses me, actually. By your logic, Confusing Controls is equally broken. Why? It's a viable counter to all effect decks. It's a viable counter to soulsphere decks. It's a viable counter to mana furnace decks. It's a viable counter to chroniton gun/backup bouncing decks. It's a viable counter to Time Waster decks. It's a viable counter to Gloopzilla decks. It's a viable counter to Nate/George decks. It's a viable counter to any deck based around one or more effects. And that's not a problem.

Except that Soulsphere also counters most of those decks, since they, too, rely on monsters.  Virtually every deck relies on monsters to some extent.  Relatively few decks rely so heavily on activatable effects.  That's really the point-- Soulsphere counters most decks, period.  If the only thing that can effectively counter Soulsphere is effect D, well, a Soulsphere deck can just pack more counters than a typical deck (and will probably have more Soulspheres than you have effect D anyway).  And it can easily have as many Burn! Burn!s as Confusing Controls any other deck is likely to have.

Tamdrik Wrote:Virtually every deck relies on monsters to some extent. Relatively few decks rely so heavily on activatable effects. That's really the point-- Soulsphere counters most decks, period.

Quoted for truth.

The problem with the effect D argument is except for mods and cards with spell immune, it applies to every single card in the game, just substitute effect D for creature D or counterspell were applicable. It is thus useless as a balance argument since something being vunerable to D cards means it has the same vunerabilities as everything else, it's only when a card has an unusual interaction with them that it's worth mentioning.

Q99 Wrote:The problem with the effect D argument is except for mods and cards with spell immune, it applies to every single card in the game

Or cards with Boss. Or Ability Immune. Ect, ect.

Or even cards that just plain aren't worth bothering wasting a destruction spell on.

The fact remains - if something destroys your deck, then pack a counter against it and stop trying to nerf it, unless it truely is broken, which this isn't.

Do you think I complain because confusing controls destroys my soulsphere deck? Nope, I just pack Burn! Burn!s and get on with it.

He already mentioned spell immune. Are you excepting his exception?

Alsobtw, what the heck are you guys even talking about? The only applicable cards are Bouquet and Diamond Ring (why are you trying to destroy it - you played it!) and Lightning Rod (and you don't own any).

Real arguments plz Chris.

Quote:Or even cards that just plain aren't worth bothering wasting a destruction spell on.

Which rarely have balance problems. Save in the 'underpowered' area sometimes.

Quote:The fact remains - if something destroys your deck, then pack a counter against it and stop trying to nerf it, unless it truely is broken, which this isn't.

Something can't be overpowered/undercosted without being broken? I don't agree with that.


My point is "Use Effect-D" is a lousy argument since the same argument applies to almost every card out. All bringing it up does is point out it's not an exception in that area, it doesn't say anything about the card's value in comparison to other cards.

I know I've mentioned this before in one of the Soulsphere threads but I'll mention it again. The nice thing about Soulsphere is that you can control the whole board with roughly 1 card; "roughly" because every once in a while you need to throw it a bone to keep it running which, by the way, is NOT limited to only Melrak Scout *cough*GremlinPit/Kemmit*cough*. If your deck has the typical ~2-3 Effect D spells that a lot of decks have, I can easily run 3-5 counter spells, still keep my Soulsphere deck effective against any other deck types, and pack somewhere around 4-6 Soulspheres (in a 30 card deck) on top of all that.
What's worse, Soulsphere has the same advantage The Dark Quandrant has in that the longer it stays in play, the worse off you are (unlike a card like Diplomacy where you are simply halted rather than stopped entirely; because whatever monsters you have in play when Soulsphere hits the field will essentially be lost unless you have Effect D or a couple of counter spells RIGHT AT THAT MOMENT).

You know, I finally realized why Soulsphere is overpowered.

Here's a common situation in CMC: you have some field control, with one or two monsters - let's say Karn and a Kelar Warrior - smacking away at your opponent. They play a creature.

Let's say, War Spybot. A threat to regain control. What do you do?

Attack it with one of yours. Duh, better to lose one than both, right? Especially with Quick Hit!

What if they played a Kelar Citizen? A cheap defender to slow you down...

It's harmless, right? Better to attack directly and go through the overflow damage next turn.

This is valid strategy, right? Right? That's where the problem is with Soulsphere.

Soulsphere lets you do BOTH OF THESE AT ONCE, virtually no matter what your opponent plays.

And then half of the attack 'overflows' onto their next creature.

What's worse is, Soulsphere hits all enemy creatures, making for full field turnaround ala The Nothing even against multiple creatures: Soulsphere plus a Scout is usually comparable to The Nothing, with the same cost, just one extra card. And, y'know, 70 damage.

Even better, the ONLY property that slows Soulsphere down is Lifebar: DLG 0% damage would stop a creature attack, and Ability Immune would prevent a targeted ability: but Soulsphere ignores BOTH of these.
(And even against Lifebar, just play some monster generators and use the Soulsphere every turn. It's very easy to do 3-4 Lifebar damage before they get to attack. Sorry Radd, but you suck.

Also, bonus points if someone effect D's your Slime Valley before you put down your Soulsphere and Mubble Woods!)

The problem is that Soulsphere is so versatile and impossible to stand up against with creatures - anything that isn't an Armormail WILL be killed within two turns. Beatstick, rush, sniper, combo, ANYTHING.

I don't know what to do about it, but the way that Soulsphere gets over 2.5x the attack value (1x to opponent, 1x to all creatures on first use, 0.5x on second, 0.25x on third...!) out of any Speed Summon creature is positively absurd.

E Mouse has done his homework, I see. I think the big problem with soulsphere is exactly what E Mouse and Nacho have already pointed out, that virtually no deck can defeat a soulsphere deck without first knowing ahead of time that the deck it was playing was indeed one packed with soulspheres and Soulsphere fodder. 4 is absolutely underpriced beyond any shadow of a doubt. Hell, that this thing even deserves sac mana is beyond me. Another argument I just heard from a soulsphere user: "Well, it would be a lot more expensive if it didn't destroy your own monsters as well when you used it"

Even if it WAS more expensive, which it should be, the monster destruction all around is one of the only benefits of soulsphere. Imagine a soulsphere where it didn't destroy your opponent's monsters. If that thing wouldn't be ban-worthy, I don't know what would be.

Soulsphere can destroy most any deck you throw at it. Dark rush is often considered the cure to Soulsphere. Ridiculous. Dark rush is made up of things like skeletal hounds, mites, evil pants, skeletal birds, KRYLGRDs, etc. All of these things can be easily killed in a two-turn Soulsphere turnaround the likes of which should never again haunt Cardmaster Conflict. I have used dark rush to beat a deck with one lonely soulsphere in it- once. That same deck has beaten me about three times now, and countless other soulsphere decks have killed my dark rush, which is usually quite effective.

Against beatsticks? Easy pickings, beatsticks' life counts are usually close together, as long as you aim in the middle, you'll probably kill any beatsticks that come your way.

Against big, bad cards like Eternals (assuming an Eternal deck can get off the ground in a rather timely manner with trinary black holes and such)? A bit more of a challenge... Okay, not really. Soulspheres easily rack up hundreds of counters.

Soulsphere's problem is fundamental in that it deals damage to ALL monsters. It sweeps the field clean of anything in the way of anyone using it. I personally don't use soulsphere decks because I know they are broken and it isn't fun for me to use them. Here's my proposal:

Why don't we shift the mechanics of the thing to something that snipes acceptably but doesn't completely fuck games at the mere cost of 4 plus whatever monster costs can be pulled out of someone's ass? Let's make soulsphere deal damage to ONE monster. Keep the basic principal of destroying monsters and then taking the attack, but narrow it down to just one monster. The entire problem is solved in one fell swoop. No longer will it sweep fields clean of any opposing efforts, but at the same time it will still be a rather dangerous sniper to watch out for, but the point is it won't be broken! End of story! Until Soulsphere is resolved in the preceeding manner, I will continue to argue against it.

If you're trying to make Soulsphere suck, just out and say "I want to utterly cripple Soulsphere." Because there's no way you actually think anybody would play that.

A cost increase, if anything, just because it outclasses TDQ in pretty much everyway.

how about soulsphere deals damage to all enemy monsters equal to count/x where x is number of opponents montsers.

How about making it get attack/2 (or thereabouts) count?

Xagar Wrote:How about making it get attack/2 (or thereabouts) count?

I'm fine with that.