And how Mechanical Chaos Scaled Up the Entire Damn Game (Part 1)

Disclaimer: These are going to be ranty and fairly emotional, as the title may have hinted. Yeah, I have poor self-control.

The biggest problem with Mechanical Chaos that I've seen is that its generators all but obsoleted any need or desire for normal dual gens – or even normal basic gens! That's what this thread is going to address.

I'll try to keep the first post of each thread updated with change suggestions and other results of discussion: remind me or another mod in IRC or AIM about what to update if you notice something important missing. Hopefully, this will make it possible to have an idea of existing discussion by reading this first post.

Let's start with the most important point:

THESE ARE THE BASELINE. These will NOT be boosted for the sole sake of "keeping up" with new generators. NO other generator setup should be generally, let alone universally, superior to using these.

The problem is, in a lot of cases they HAVE been obsoleted. Today's example:

Mechanical Chaos Switch Gens

Ahahahahahahah, WHERE TO BEGIN.

Switch generators were ALWAYS intended for earlygame generation in bicolor decks, with a disadvantage to make up for their flexibility in switching between mana types: they were NOT intended to become mandatory replacements for half of your basic generators in any monocolor deck because they can fucking triple your generation rate on turn 1.

The biggest problem with switchgens is that they cost 1 of one type of mana, but generate another. In essence, this means gaining 2 of one color mana in exchange for 1 of another color. Hm, what else gives you a net profit of 2 mana for the price of 1...

If a lesser source every goddamn turn for an offcolor mana can possibly be balanced, the only possible way I can see it happening is giving them disadvantages on the scale of Clash Spybot.

So it's pretty clear this is innately out of line. The problem is, what should we do about it?

A lot of suggestions have been proposed in the past, many omitted in favor of the stepped nerfs that have gone through so far (because everyone loves their new overpowered generators requiring a complete redesign of everything previous to abuse them). I'll try to include them in the balance change options, but here's my take on the problem:

Switchgens MUST generate the same color as their cost, as with basic generators.

This is important because, again, there is NO sane way to justify 1 offcolor flat for 2 on-color per turn for monocolor decks as the default. From there we can work out the kinks such as "using the ability every turn making this a moot change unless your opponent plays Confusing Controls pretty much instantly." Which is not the point.

There are a multitude of possible fixes to slow down monocolor abuse with switch gens on top of the play-generator fix: in general, the basic solution is to include an additional activation cost for using their ability to switch. The simplest changes are either blockdizzying or spiking (no generation next turn) when the ability is used, ultimately allowing for monocolor conversion only every other turn without being overly crippled for bicolor usage. A possible alternative would be to move other sorts of disadvantages to their activation cost, such as the more varied set of downsides they originally had for into play: since these would only be used for acting above and beyond basic generators and be relevant fairly often, you could actually get away with the original semi-avoidable effects.

These are going to be a nightmare, but for god's sake, guys, let's get them to the point where they actually go in bicolor decks rather than mandatory replacements for half your generators in mono, okay?

Proposed Changes:
WITHOUT matching play cost and default generation type:
1/1 cost – Vetoed in the past, slows down too much for basic dual gens...

WITH matching play cost and default generation type:
(Into Play/)Use Ability: No undizzy next
Use ability: Spiked
Misc. ability-use downside

Alternatives:
A maintenance penalty?

making them spike or dizzy lock on use wont help with the biggest problem
which is the turn 1 triple gen mono decks
at best it wont HURT duel/tri color decks (i think it would hurt a lot actually)

i'm for making them generate the color of their cost

edit: if they generate the color of their cost then the switch parts on each card need to be switched
meaning if solar crystal is going to generate dark mana its ability should be pay 1D gain 1L

I'm against making them generate the color of their cost. The only thing that will do will be to force you to use the switch ability every turn, which will be more annoying but just as powerful.

Having them generate the colour of their cost (and swapping the activated ability) won't change anything on its own; they'll still be just as capable as giving you the colour of mana that you didn't pay for them.

They definitely need a nerf, though. In addition to having them generate on colour mana, how about making the ability have the same cost as the into play penalty?

Ultros Wrote:Having them generate the colour of their cost (and swapping the activated ability) won't change anything on its own; they'll still be just as capable as giving you the colour of mana that you didn't pay for them.

They definitely need a nerf, though. In addition to having them generate on colour mana, how about making the ability have the same cost as the into play penalty?

yeah you're right
didn't really think that one all the way through

and while i kind of like your idea it still wont help with the mono decks that are abusing them because they rarely if ever use the switching aspect of the gens

Quote:and while i kind of like your idea it still wont help with the mono decks that are abusing them because they rarely if ever use the switching aspect of the gens

I'm suggesting that in addition to making them generate on-colour and switch to off-colour. Mono decks would have to use the ability every turn in order to get the mana of the colour that they didn't play the generator for.

oh
yeah you're right sorry

that sounds like a pretty good idea then

Well, first off the things I'm adamantly against:
1/1 cost, spiking, maintenance, costed ability usage*
They all skew too far into the area of "nerf it to the ground so at least it won't be broken." I'm looking for the smallest possible nerf to remove the ability to spam generators early on and that's all.

Dizzy-Lock on ability use (just on ability use) combined with cost-generation matching seems like the best idea, but I worry that it will remove their usage in dual color decks. Will it really be worthwhile to play a card that basically generates dark one turn and grey the next in a d/g deck? This isn't a rhetorical, I'm really wondering what people think. I'm looking for a way to have these cards work as a viable dual color mana base, but not something that punishes you for using their ability (which something like having to pay 15 life to switch would do.)

*"meaning 15 life ", something like not dizzy-lock. I'm against something you have to pay.

---

Ultros Wrote:In addition to having them generate on colour mana, how about making the ability have the same cost as the into play penalty?

NOLDER Wrote:that sounds like a pretty good idea then

That's a terrible idea, and here's why:
Wait a second, let me pause and just point out that glorious phrase. It'd be awesome if people actually added that to their posts instead of jumping on bandwagons with "I agree with Andriex" like mindless sheep that lack the spines to blurt out their own stupid, ignorant, and down right wrong opinions rather than latching on to my stupid, ignorant, and down right wrong opinions. I loathe you people. You and your memes.

Why would anyone play two cards and 15 life a turn to switch mana between them? It seems to me that this is a rather ludacris payment you're asking from people for a negligible benefit within dual color decks. It wouldn't just punish people that attempt to use switch gens in monocolor, but anyone that uses them. It's not as though switch gens are broken in every case, so I can't see why we need to go that far.

Oh, and...

Ultros Wrote:In addition to having them generate on colour mana, how about making the ability have the same cost as the into play penalty?

You're not British. Seriously, don't become some kinda creepy anglophile. You're a perfectly good human being from a joke of a "country" and should embrace that. Canada may be ridiculous, but they're apparently doing something right if they produced you. That said, I offer a correction in hopes that you'll embrace your origins and be a proud national.

Ultros Wrote:In addition to having them generate on color mana, how about making the ability have the same cost as the into play penalty, you hosers? Beauty, eh?

What about 1/1 cost, but the second mana being the off-color mana?

For example, Fission Core would cost 11. You would only be able to play one on the first turn (and a basic gen), and it would only slow down your splash (not as important in Dual-color decks?)

sXeAndriex Wrote:You're not British. Seriously, don't become some kinda creepy anglophile. You're a perfectly good human being from a joke of a "country" and should embrace that. Canada may be ridiculous, but they're apparently doing something right if they produced you. That said, I offer a correction in hopes that you'll embrace your origins and be a proud national.

Just a note: We left Britain under good terms (unlike a certain other rambunctious nation who ran away from home because Europe didn't understand you), as a result we're still technically under Her Majesty The Queen of England, but all that means is some person with a stick has to say "yes" every time a new law comes around.

The upshot of it is that we don't use crazy measurements and spell things with u's and re's.

If the cost of the switch gens bumped up to 1/1 they would cost as much as a normal gen plus a penalty for the choice to choose between two generators. That's as much a power gen to generate half as much (plus a downside, minus power, and minus the cantrip). Seems like too much of a change from their current incarnation and too much of a nerf to me. Mus stated (and I assume this is from Web's mind more or less) that the intention was early game mana generation for dual color decks. I don't see how that works if they cost just as much as power gens and pretty much as much as allying gens.

I think it'd be interesting to have the switchgens at 1/1, but reversing the downsides to be upsides (you gain life, gain mana, etc.). Then again, another part of my brain tells me that's a retarded idea.

higher cost+managain is retarted indeed, since that wouldn't be higher cost at all.

I think Leander has a fairly interesting idea.

Here's somehting...

Higher cost, and give them back speed summon. That way they either cost 1/1 or 2 off-color. I think that would still make them reliable plays in a bi-color deck (got extra of one color, play the switch gen in a way that uses that color) and make them much less useful for monocolor decks (can't play them first turn, only second turn at 2-off color, making them very slow).

The following would nerf Switchgens into the ground and make them unplayable:

1/1 cost (any 1/1 cost that results in them costing more then 1/0/0): Prince Duel gens cost and generate exactly twice as much, without any draw backs, and with 2/2 more sac, and while only taking up one card and one effect slot. Clockworks cost as much but generate 1/1 instead of 1 Or 1, you get to draw 2 cards from them. Also, I will kill anyone who suggests nerfing clockworks.

Penalty upon using the ability and all generate the same color as cost: This one could actually work if the penalties were greatly reduced, like really greatly. The only problem is the three switch gens whose abilities can't be nerfed, the ones that give your opponent mana. Since they already give the least amount of mana possible while still giving mana, we'd need to think up 3 new abilities that could be nerfed and work with very small numbers. Unfortunately, we suck at that, and web vetoed giving any 2 switch gens the same draw back. Also, didn't he veto anything but an into play draw back? I thought I remembered him doing that.

Use ability: Spiked: this is basicly the same as switching their abilities to " Gain " which makes them worthless in duel color decks. Paying 2 mana for 1 mana is bad.

A maintenance penalty: see "Penalty upon using the ability" .

Which leaves "(Into Play/)Use Ability: No undizzy next" as the only option that doesn't nerf them into the ground, and actually leaves them somewhat playable. Of course I still think they're fine as is though.

Serith Wrote:I'm against making them generate the color of their cost. The only thing that will do will be to force you to use the switch ability every turn, which will be more annoying but just as powerful.

Except where that change is implemented in conjunction with the dizzy-lock ability cost change. Then you only could switch every second turn, which would be annoying (if you still used it with the predetermined intent of switching every second turn) but would not be as strong.
I feel this would still be of good use for bicolor decks as well; They can generate 100% of their primary color, 50% of each color, or anything inbetwen. They couldn't generate more than 50% of the offcolor, but in bicolor decks this would usually be fine. Even if a semi-manascrew (or deck design) lead to you only generating one of the two types of switch gen for your colour, you could generate both colours evenly (the general requirement of bicolor decks). Or more likely, you could still boost whichever colour you needed to accelerate your bigger gens.

Incidentally, the penalties that come from an entity being spiked are nullified if the spiking occurs on the draw phase, and phase lock-outs are both annoying and verbose. This, and that it would be an overnerf outside of this workaround (prevention of mana generation esentially means you'd be switching mana at a 2 for 1 rate), are why I'm against spiking even being considered.

azulknight Wrote:I think it'd be interesting to have the switchgens at 1/1, but reversing the downsides to be upsides (you gain life, gain mana, etc.). Then again, another part of my brain tells me that's a retarded idea.

1/1 cost and gain mana is sortof equivalent to 1 cost, but just means that you need to play the cards in the right order on turn 1; you could still get out three gens first turn. Or worse yet, with New Power Source, four gens and have more mana than you started with! Even if you switched the mana gains for other upsides, this would probably be too radical a change.

No upside or downside though? Could work, but I think the dizzy-lock intoplay/on use idea could as well.

Wow, holy fucking hell, look at that. Some people read comments and responded to them with their opinions.. and explained why they feel that way. I'm dizzy, someone hold me. Then again, we still have Serith's post, but we're getting somewhere. Good job reminding me of why I have faith in humanity.

Um, yeah. Masa's comments regarding the dizzy-lock seem to be well thought out and mirror some of the concepts I had toolin' around in my skull when I made my post. I think I'll go ahead and Vote: Dizzy-Lock on ability use only and match cost-generation. Not completely, 100% dead on with this idea though so if anyone has any good counter-arguments I'm perfectly willing to admit to being wrong and unvote.

masa does have a good point. While I feel this weakens them quite a bit in bi-color decks (which I would rather not see happen), that does seem like a reasonable nerf to limit monocolor decks (and not too bad on the bicolor decks). I'll put my vote with that for now.

I am fine with hurting monocolor decks that use switchgens as accelerated mana gen.

I am against hurting bicolor decks that only use switchgens for both color mana gen.

That's all I really have to add in, I don't really agree with anything else posted. But I don't disagree. I'm inbetween.