Tick Tock: How Mechanical Chaos Scaled Up the Entire Damn Game, Part 2

Nacho Wrote:The three powergenerators provide power, they don't require it. Clockworks require power, they don't provide it. requiring power is a disadvantage, which is why any card that has it needs to be better then similar cards that don't.

They cost half as much as any other generators and cantrip. They are better than other dualgens.
What I meant to say is that since you need to use power in your clockwork deck anyway you are likely to user powemonsters too, or should at least and that's what should make up for your manageneration to be somewhat worse than normal dualgeneration.

They're generators, there one and only purpose is to generate mana. If we make them worse at doing that then other duel generators, they are worse then other duel generators. Look at the allying. The fact that allying monsters are better then normal monsters if you have the allying to power them hasn't made the allying gens any worse at generating then other duel gens in allying decks. So why should power be worse at generating then other duel gens in power decks because power monsters are better then normal monsters if you have the power to power them?

As fas as I understood it Allying gens are considered to be somewhat worse at generating dualmana than normal dualgenerators at least as long as you don't have allying monsters around to meet the allying in case you don't draw enough generators fast enough and even if you get to have 4 Generators in game you will not be able to use ore than one other effect except if you giver up your dualgeneration or have some allying monster.

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let's look at some other aspect too:

Serith Wrote:Dual Gens are horrifically slow on their own. I've tried and they can't keep up with basics/sources by themselves.

akujintails Wrote:Serith does have a point with those Dual Gens being too slow (although of course those don't need to be put in a specialist deck to use them), but I'd say fine as is until more arguments are provided.

Shadowhunter Wrote:I think the clockworks are fine as is. The prince dual gens just suck.

Well, If we consent on Prince-gens to be the baseline for dualgens and there are so many people complaining about them in general while comparing them with Clockworks, it looks like they are stronger than princegens and should therefore be nerfed. (That's only if we consent that Prince-Gens are the baseline. If you don't think so there'l not be any problem here.) Right now Clockworks seem to be outright better then Princegems according to those who were against nerfing them.

But we didn't say dual gens were slower in comparison to Clockworks, it was said that dual gens were slower than just using dark obelisk/neutral charm.

Noodle Wrote:But we didn't say dual gens were slower in comparison to Clockworks, it was said that dual gens were slower than just using dark obelisk/neutral charm.

Well you dind't say anything about it at all untill now, so you should say "They" and not "We".

This whole Thread is about Comparing dualgens and Clockworks so I thought they were just trying to say that prince-gens in general are somewhat slow. I didn't disagree with it, I just said that if this is the case and clockworks seem to be faster and therefore better at generating dualmana and that there should not be any dualsgeneration taht is outright better than princedualgens if we consider those the baseline.

If they did not use their comparison to illustrate any such point about the princegens i don't get why they should have mentioned it all. Comparing dualgens to monogens is quite hasrder than comparing dualgens between each other and I fail to see how it would help this discussion.

I speak through everyone else. So I say "we".

Also, clockworks are just as slow as dual gens when starting out, unless you drop a New Power Source. However, you then require three cards to get one mana generation on turn one. Sure, it's nice if you can drop three clockworks and Power Cell, but that doesn't happen nearly as often since Clockworks got nerfed last time. The clockworks costing 1/1 make up for the requirement to have power out for them to just not be dead weight, dual gens don't require any additional cards to make them generate, which I think everyone already said.

So it's not that dual gens are slow in comparison to clockworks(which do have the potential to be fast, but also have the potential to slow you down to a pace where you'd wish you were running regular dual gens), it's that dual gens are slow in general. So, they need a boost.

duel gens can't be boosted
they're the baseline

NOLDER Wrote:duel gens can't be boosted
they're the baseline

Is that something Webrunner said beforehand?

I thought that dual gens weren't going to be boosted to be able to compete with clockworks and the like? I didn't read anything about dual gens not being boosted at all.

Even if they are the baseline, they're a weak baseline. Most of the time you're better off just running a combination of both obelisks, shrines, and charms. Maybe it's just the problem Ultros brought up, them being so expensive. I'm willing to wait after MW to boost them, but if they're still weak afterwards then someone needs to make a thread.

I'd say its reasonable to boost the Prince duals if they're not as good as using two colours of basic generators (though more evidence of that will be needed first). I'll ask webrunner about it later; he's busy at the moment.

hmm

i dunno
i'm guessing we'd have to ask web before even thinking about boosting them
and we probably shouldn't ask until a while after MT comes out anyway

NOLDER Wrote:i'm guessing we'd have to ask web before even thinking about boosting them
and we probably shouldn't ask until a while after MT comes out anyway

If that's the case we realy should delay this discussion until after MT was released and we got to testing normal dualcolorgens some more.

NOLDER Wrote:and we probably shouldn't ask until a while after MT comes out anyway

Why? Why wait till MT comes out and not do it now? Because the prince duel gens really do suck, and have sucked ever since they came out. They, along with Crossover, could really use boosts. Hell, did web ever say they were basic duel gens and not to be boosted, or are we just all assuming that?

Nacho Wrote:Why? Why wait till MT comes out and not do it now?

Because there will be reprints of them in MT so they will be available far more often and there is a greater base of players that will actually use them.[/spoiler]

They've been out for years. We should never hold off on boosting a rare card because some people haven't used it, just recognize that some people's opinion will come from experience, while others wont. Since they've been out for a few years now, most people who aren't new should have some form of experience with them anyway. I'm not going to wait a few months to boost a card just so a few people who aren't willing to buy it now because it sucks can get it cheaper, play with it, and tell me it still sucks.

There realy is few poeple who have enough prince-gens to make them their base generators for some deck. Why should we limit the discussion if we could just wait a little and see how it wioll be once there are more people who can test them. It would be quite silly to boost them now just to nerve them later on.

DarkSouled Wrote:There realy is few poeple who have enough prince-gens to make them their base generators for sime deck.

Why? Why do so few people have enough of them? Is it because they're so rare they cost more then 600 points each? Or is it because they suck and aren't worth buying for 600 points each? Anyone can test them now, it's not like they're trophies or anything. The problem is they suck, and so people aren't willing to buy them. Also, what's a sime?

Well as long as we're talking about it, I'd like to suggest an ore-type ability. Gain 1/1 of the color as long as you don't have another dual gen in play. Not sure if Runner would like that, or how broken it would be, but just throwing it out there.

Of course it would require making a new type for the gens, and I dunno what we'd use in the first place. Second I guess that's sort of frowned upon. But still.

Not that I like the idea, but the type would be clockwork. They're all clockworks.

duel gens have only recently gone down in price
they used to be more in the range of 1.5k to 2k (if i remember correctly)
everyone wanted a big hoard of them
we should wait because it'll be something like the difference between ancient legends and ToK
(even though the cheaper one was released first)
the new duel gens should be cheap enough to make them your only gen in a 60 card deck if you wanted
you really can't do that now without spending a lot of points