[Suggest] NPC / Landing [Finished]

No second thread.

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NPC (not the 60/1)

A while back, there was a discussion on IRC where we talked about NPC/Landing, and about Remembrance This thread will be about the first two.

The NPC/Landing combo is a and two card combo, that draws you three cards. It's the cheapest way of getting card advantage. Any deck will be better with this combo. Other card drawers don't really compare (except maybe for Remembrance with a card that's meant to be discarded, but that's a lot more conditional).
The biggest issue with the combo is that it's so spammable.
Earlier attempts to find a solution to this 'problem' have resulted in the conclusions that it's impossible to nerf this combo without overnerfing it. Here are some nuanced solutions that you might like:

1. Give all NPCs the ability (Boss)
2. Make Landing target only undizzy monsters.

Pros and cons of each solution:
1. This makes the NPC/Landing combo impossible (can be conceived as a pro or a con). An alternative would be to run Landing with one costers (Skeleton?), or zero costers (yay, more use for chookie). It would add a nice extra effect to NPC, as it would suddenly be a TDQ counter.

2. This is not a very big change, and probably the best of the two because of that (imho). It would not change the way any of these cards work, but it would remove spammability. You would have to wait a turn to combo it with NPC, but you could still use it with Gloops.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the second solution because of the lack of side effects.

The way I see it, this is an either/or balance and this is why the cards are in the same thread. Either nerf NPC, or nerf Landing (or neither). However, if people feel they should nerf both NPC and Landing, I'm not going to stop them from posting this. I'll just discourage it as it is almost certainly an overnerf then.

Since this is the first thread with the new rules in effect, I'd like to point out that they are. Sticky is in the balance forum. This thread is for determining whether or not we change so you don't have to specify in your vote. Your choice of preferrence should probably be part of your explanation though.

I like giving the NPCs boss. A card advantage of one is worth 3 mana, but this only costs 1. and more importantly, it not only stops the Landing spam, but it hurts TDQ decks too. In fact, I really don't care about the landing combo, I just hate TDQ decks.

In terms of flavour, you might think that NPCs having (Boss) would be flavourful (with being unable to harm NPCs in RPGs), but you've got to bear in mind that the bad guys and such (ie, dark cards from ADV/RPGW) can hurt NPCs.

I'm not going to vote until I've read arguments on both sides though, as this is a fairly big change imo. Actually, are we even allowed to vote yet?

Oh, right. The 24 hour rule, we aren't yet.

masamunemaniac Wrote:In terms of flavour, you might think that NPCs having (Boss) would be flavourful (with being unable to harm NPCs in RPGs), but you've got to bear in mind that the bad guys and such (ie, dark cards from ADV/RPGW) can hurt NPCs.

thats only in the classic linear rpgs though. In non-linear rpgs you can basically hack and slash your way through a crowd of npcs with no problem. Thats why fable and Elder Scrolls are so awesome.

Well, I was thinking more specifically the flavour of ADV and RPGW.

re Suggestion #2:

1. Disables using Landing to solve Stasis Field, which was one of its other nicer and completely not broken uses.

2. It's not very flavorful - there's no reason a dizzy monster can't be squashed by a ship.

Find the problem and fix it, and nothing more. If the problem is Landing + NPC, then give NPC immunity to landing, not all dizzy monsters.

We could combine the two and give NPCs (Boss) while dizzied. I've no flavor justification for that, however.

Offhand, I don't think you could do that.

It seems needlessly complicated.

why not just make landing not draw cards if it targets an npc? destroy target monster if it was not an npc draw 2 cards. If it was an npc hey that just flavorfull as no one cares when they die and no one profits from it (npc's loot is usually horrible anyway)

Sol's suggestion is probably the most sensible and elegant, if the combo is deemed nerfworthy.

moonfish Wrote:I don't think NPC needs spell immunity. I mean, surely it's a strong combination, but NPC/landing costs you two cards to get you a net gain of 1 card.
Yes, it's usually more effective than a ToK or AL because of the frequency in which you can use them, but it's happened to me way too many times before that I drew NPCs only or Landings only while I just needed one of both.

I do admit it's a strong combo, but it's accessable to anyone in any deck if they get the cards. And because of the rarity it doesn't totally dominate the entire game field (yes, this could change over time. But it hasn't happened yet so I don't really think the combination is worth changing yet.

And if it is changed, I'd much rather see Landing get an additional cost (optional: if the target costs less than X).

That first paragraph you posted in the old thread pretty much sums it up - except replace spell immune with any other nerf. Anyone who's ran NPC/Landing without 20+ NPCs in their deck has experienced the problem listed, drawing one or the other - and that's the problem with using combos to determine a card is "overpowered". I've said it before and I'll say it five fucking thousand more times, strong does not mean broken.

moonfish Wrote:The NPC/Landing combo is a and two card combo, that draws you three cards. It's the cheapest way of getting card advantage. Any deck will be better with this combo. Other card drawers don't really compare (except maybe for Remembrance with a card that's meant to be discarded, but that's a lot more conditional).
The biggest issue with the combo is that it's so spammable.

Having not read the old threads, I will suggest giving Landing a cost of . Then you're getting three cards for 2 and two cards, for a net card gain of 1 (also keeping in mind that NPCs can be sniped, and Landing countered by anything). One more card and one less mana than Ancient Legends, but it also requires two cards to pull off. So now it's a net gain of 1 card for 2. This makes it less spammable, as it eats up faster. Like you said, the problem is the spammability. The combo doesn't need to be impossible, just less spammable.

That said, I haven't used the combo too much, but the times it's been used against me I've had no problem with the spammability. Again, you're really only getting a net of one card for 1. That's essentially Ancient Legends cut in half and easier to counter. I haven't found it to be overpowered as it is at all. Stong, maybe, but not overpowered. I'll be likely to vote for no change as soon as I'm able, but if it needs to be nerfed then there's a suggestion. (Granted, I don't like the suggestion myself, but it's the smallest possible nerf I could think of off the top of my head. Take it or leave it.)

Underlined shit = my main point. I didn't really organize this post very well, so there you go.

If you want a smaller nerf than an increased cost, then increase the speed at the same time

masamunemaniac Wrote:If you want a smaller nerf than an increased cost, then increase the speed at the same time

I actually though of that, too, it just didn't make it into my post for some reason. I blame lack of sleep. Pretend "also, some kind of speed increase" was part of my suggestion then.

Of course, it's still free if you're using Kel'Sor Elflands

i don't think this combo needs to be nerfed really
and i definitely don't like your suggestions
1. NPC's are NOT bosses
2. like someone (i think Serith) said above, it doesn't matter if the monster is dizzy or not
the spaceship should still be able to land on them

i kind of like Jays suggestion of increase the cost of landing to 1G
again i really don't think theres much of a problem with this combo (outside chimera decks) but if a nerf is decided thats probably what i'm going to go with

NOLDER Wrote:1. NPC's are NOT bosses

You encounter 1x

(Boss) isn't given for flavor, it's given for function (same with obliteration).

NOLDER Wrote:again i really don't think theres much of a problem with this combo (outside chimera decks)...

I can name a few more:

Do keep in mind, although it is only a get gain of 1 card, you are still drawing 3 cards from the combo. That's 3 chances of drawing the card you want instead of the 2 that ToK/AL gives you. It also helps the combo that each of the combo cards in question can draw additional cards by themselves (you don't have to only Landing a NPC; Gloops are very good substitutes).