[Overhaul] Power Mechanic 2 [Finished]

Yes, and for that reason I don't intend to bold my vote and whatnot, I'm just trying to present proper arguments for and against certain aspects.

Most of this is going into my preferred direction, anyhow.

Since discussion's died down again, I'll ask a second time. Does anyone have any problems with the following format:


Power Provided:
2 Power: Power Cell
3 Power: Plasma Pack, Gravity Pack, Stellar Pack
4 Power: Solar Panel, Fossil Engine, Nuclear Plant
6 Power: Ultracell Battery, ZFF-90 Zeus
8 Power: Electric Company
10 Power: Hydrogen Cell

Power Required:
2 Power: Diamond Clockwork, Shadow Clockwork, Stellar Clockwork
4 Power: Clockwork Paladin, Missilepod
6 Power: Deadly Appliance, Dethstrik Eliminator, Dethstrik Eradicator, Quantum Clock
8 Power: MX-5 Stonehammer, ZFF-24 Hermes, ZFF-90 Zeus (14 after including his own generation)
12 Power: Dethstrik Eradicator's ability
14 Power: ZFF-90 Zeus' ability (20 after including his own generation)

Add ZFF-90 Zeus' power provided amount onto its power requirements



If not, we can start the 3rd and final thread to decide on Ultra Cell's fate, along with the fates of any other card anyone feels will be unnecessary nerfed or boosted by these changes.

This seems fine.

I personally think Eradicator should require 14 power for its ability, too, since they are both rather potent (and the mana cost difference explains destruction vs oblit), but otherwise it seems ok.

That also seems fine.

I think the requirement for Stonehammer and Hermes should be lower. I thought they were still supposed to be 2 and 3, and we doubled these numbers. Whoever thinks that doubling either 2 or 3 will result in 8 should go home

The numbers have been on the table since #116...

Then I suppose I haven't been reading much.

I'm against making both Stonehammer and Hermes require more power than Ultracell can provide.
Also, before you can put the currently existing monsters that all require the same amount of power on different required levels of power, you should be doing balance threads on them. With that in mind, I think it'd be best to put all the 2 power monsters at six power, and then make nerf threads for them if you think it's appropriate.

(09-09-2008 10:05 AM)moonfish Wrote:  Then I suppose I haven't been reading much.

I'm against making both Stonehammer and Hermes require more power than Ultracell can provide.
Also, before you can put the currently existing monsters that all require the same amount of power on different required levels of power, you should be doing balance threads on them. With that in mind, I think it'd be best to put all the 2 power monsters at six power, and then make nerf threads for them if you think it's appropriate.

It was part of the scale. As more powerful creatures, they should require more power than Deadly Appliance & co.

This is a balance thread for them, as will Nacho's suggested third thread be. We've pretty much got a consensus for those above Power numbers now, but there's nothing to stop people from proposing corresponding statboosts in the next thread or whatever.

If this is a balance thread, then we should've changed the number of counters on Ultracell.

Except we agreed (I don't know who constitutes 'we') to keep that separate in order to keep focus and cohesion. We can deal with it in the next thread, before implementation.

But that aside, there's been a lot of talk lately of removing cantrip instead.

Aye, removing the cantrip seems like a nice compromise between the two sides. It lets U-Cell stay in play for an exorbitant amount of time but lessens its usefulness in being a Power provider for Clockworks as it won't cantrip Clockworks if you get early turn "mana screw" (not to mention cycle itself if you draw too many like Power Cell conveniently does). Moreover, it seems we can keep it at 3/6 Power by just removing the cantrip as opposed to the proposed 5/10 Power it'd have to be increased to for it to be acceptable at a lower amount of counters.

For Hermes and Stonehammer at 4/8 Power, the idea was that they would be significantly more powerful for their cost bracket precisely because you'd need a Power Cell and an Ultracell or otherwise 4 Power Cells to be able to "use" them (not sure if we're planning on changing the penalties). The more significant the drawback and the difficulty to use, the more powerful we can make them.

@ Chris: I'm aginst making Eradicator's ability unusable with Ultra Cells. The rest of the D/G monsters can all be used in a deck with only U-Cells, and I'd prefer he simply need 2 of them instead of changing around your deck to use power generators only he needs.

@Moonfish: Wait till the next thread.

@Blue: Electric Company works just fine for powering the Stonehammers and Hermes.

(09-09-2008 03:47 PM)Ignacio Wrote:  @ Chris: I'm aginst making Eradicator's ability unusable with Ultra Cells. The rest of the D/G monsters can all be used in a deck with only U-Cells, and I'd prefer he simply need 2 of them instead of changing around your deck to use power generators only he needs.

Except repeatable destruction (at no cost once you have the power) is extremely powerful. No other creature, to my knowledge, has it eithout either a drawback or a fairly large mana cost.

It should be hard to use without trying, IMO.

I'd like to point out I'm not really having any problems with Stonehammer and Hermes being outside U-cell range. What I do have problems with is that Eradicator and Eliminator shouldn't be within this range either, for the same reasons (if they should be outside this range at all). I don't understand why both the dark/grey part of the power users should require less.

Eradicator might be fine with requiring 6 power (as proposed) and the ability above that (as proposed), but Eliminator is exactly on the same level as Stonehammer or Hermes without an ability that relies on power.

(09-09-2008 04:38 PM)moonfish Wrote:  I'd like to point out I'm not really having any problems with Stonehammer and Hermes being outside U-cell range. What I do have problems with is that Eradicator and Eliminator shouldn't be within this range either, for the same reasons (if they should be outside this range at all). I don't understand why both the dark/grey part of the power users should require less.

Because neither one has more than 25 life. Both Eradicator and Eliminator are very, very easily killed by pretty much any monster, and doubly so by snipers, Mountain Ranges, etc... They're no where near as strong as Stonehammer and Hermes. I've made Hermes rush, Stonehammer rush, Dethstrik rush, Hermes Cthulhu, Stonehammer Cthulhu, and Dethstrik Cthulhu. The 4 with Hermes and Stonehammer bordered broken, and at the very least were over powered. The ones with Dethstrik kept having problems with 3 mana monsters.

@Chris: Alright, I guess I have no problem with Upping Eradicator's ability's requirement.

The thing is that they simply need support. I've made a combination of Eradicators and Stonehammers, and they pretty much die just as often (which is usually nearest to not at all, they hardly ever die more often than they should for me to win).

Leaving all of the dark/grey power monsters at a 6 or less power requirement gives dark/grey a serious edge over any other color combination, where it certainly doesn't deserve this edge. So either move some of the other colors down, or move some dark/grey up.

(09-09-2008 05:58 PM)moonfish Wrote:  The thing is that they simply need support. I've made a combination of Eradicators and Stonehammers, and they pretty much die just as often (which is usually nearest to not at all, they hardly ever die more often than they should for me to win).

Leaving all of the dark/grey power monsters at a 6 or less power requirement gives dark/grey a serious edge over any other color combination, where it certainly doesn't deserve this edge. So either move some of the other colors down, or move some dark/grey up.

But that would require buffing both d/g creature's stats. So it should be reserved for the 3rd thread, IMO.

If you're using both Stonehammers and Eliminators, you can obviously power the Stonehammers, right? So it doesn't matter how much power the Eliminators need.

Both Hermes rush and Stonehammer rush are absolutely broken, a problem Eliminator rush doesn't have. Eliminators need support unlike the other 2, there for Eliminators aren't as good as the other 2, there for it's ok for them to need less power than the other 2. Also, if not for them, U-Cells would become useless pieces of junk capable only of powering Deadly Appliances. If it really is true that Eliminators and Eradicators are no worse than Hermes and Stonehammers, which I don't believe, I'd prefer we nerf them in thread 3, but keep them at 6 power, if only so U-Cell actually has some cards that can be used with it.