[Suggest] Generic Monster Destruction [Finished]

Does anyone have any objections to that, or any other feasible suggestions given what webrunner's said in post #139?

(for those on 20/page, that post is kinda important here)

I'd just like to actually have votes for something to get to the point where all this discussion actually matters.

no no no
more expensive is totally in the wrong direction
i don't care if it's dropped to E even but please don't RAISE the damn cost
it being so expensive is what makes it and most other monster D so bad in the first place

Why should I bother with a 10 Destruction spell if for 15 I will get to destroy my opponents monster and gain it's attack and Lifepoints to my lifepoints. Sure it's 5 more mana but often enough you might even want to use it just for the life you will get.
And if 10 for destroying a monster would be actually good, why would we even talk about End Disk Two and try to boost it?

Crush should be at 8 .

In the beinning of this thread all Three of the generic monster destruction spells were meant to be boosted. We could use this to boos Alien Lawyers Speed, while giving Crush a worse speed and lowering its cost to 8 .

This way both off them would get some boost, they would actually be somewhat more different and therefore interesting and the difference in how good exactly they are would be somewhat below 1 Mana.

There's no consensus to boost Lawyers There's no reason to boost Lawyers.
There's almost consensus to boost Crush webrunner has said that there should be mre of a difference, but that a 1 mana difference may be too much.
The beginning of the thread is the uninformed view of one person it has little bearing on how we should proceed.

You do know you changing from no change to change on crush would change the end result, right? Cause everything you just said is reason to change. Just curious if you realize you're still voting that way. We get a whole other thread to decide what the change will be.

What I'd probably like to see though is a bit of both - boost Crush and nerf Lawyers, rather than just changing one.

Though at this stage I'm tempted to pass Crush for a boost regardless of the fact that I don't think it needs one and it doesn't meet the â…” requirement, re webrunner.

(03-26-2009 08:04 PM)DarkSouled Wrote:  Why should I bother with a 10 Destruction spell if for 15 I will get to destroy my opponents monster and gain it's attack and Lifepoints to my lifepoints.

Because this one's uncounterable.

We could at least vote on whether we want to just boost Crush, just nerf Alien Lawyers, or do some combination of the two.

Gotta be honest, it seems dumb to circumvent the rules when you can do it within the rules in one vote.

Alternatively, it would also make sense to close this thread for now and make a separate thread regarding flavor balance for the two cards. This thread was created to suggest a boost to generic monster destruction, which is separate from instating flavor balance. Any conversation about the general under/over/correct power of these cards can be dealt with through the proper channels once the webrunner-flavor issue is dealt with, as it was (as was mentioned earlier) an unknown when this was brought up. That way, no one would have to worry about voting for a boost/nerf when they disagree with them and instead can focus on the proper distance between the two cards. The same way we handled One/Two Costers back when.

can we hold off on the tally until we figure out what we're doing?

The way flavorful balancing has always worked in the past is that the flavorfuly "best" card is balanced, and everything flavorfuly worse than it is underpowered, at least in comparison. If Shooting Star were gray, we would boost it, not nerf Kelar Tremorcall and Smash Hopes. If this thread decides Crush to be balanced at speed and 9 mana, then that should be our baseline, and we should create a second thread to nerf the rest of Monster D until they're all flavorfuly worse than it. Overpowered cards are more of a detriment to the game than underpowered ones.


I'm going to post the tally now, and if discussion is still going on in 24 hours, which I expect it to be, the thread will stay open, just like the rules say it will, ok NOLDER?


Dark
Boost: NOLDER, Sol, Louda, Aldgar, aperson, Serith, Ultros, POW1415, DarkSouled, Andriex (10)
Fine: masa, Nacho, bubbleman, ChrisAsmadi, Cor, Enatai (6)

Grey
Boost: NOLDER, Louda, Aldgar, aperson, Serith, POW1415 (6)
Fine: masa, Nacho, bubbleman, ChrisAsmadi, Cor, Enatai (6)

No... If Crush was (is?) the only card that doesn't fit the pattern then wouldn't nerf all the other monster Ds just because people don't feel comfortable boosting Crush...

Crush isn't the only one that doesn't fit the pattern, there is no pattern. Right now, the order is loosely L>D>G, with D>G by too small of an amount for web's liking. I'm suggesting we use Crush as the baseline for the pattern we're about to set up, because it's the strongest, and currently balanced. It means we don't end up with any overpowered cards. Underpowered cards are still usable, especially if there aren't any alternatives (see Shooting Star). Overpowered ones fuck with the whole game though, and should be avoided at all costs, whether or not alternatives exist.

Ignacio- I have no idea if that's a reply to something or just commentary, but it makes no sense regardless.

There is no always, things have changed repeatedly. Regardless of that, "over" and "under" powered depends on what they are compared to, and which of them is more important to change also alters given the situation. There is no "this is the way it always is", as different situations warrant different responses. Even if there were a precedent in this situation, that in no way indicates that an alternative solution cannot provide a more favorable result.

Beyond that, the cards were voted on as a mixture of "need to be changed because they're too weak/are fine as is" and "need to be changed because the flavorful balance does not exist as intended/it exists enough as is". The matter isn't that people find one card fine- it's that these are two distinctly different situations and the votes are being lumped together despite the discord that involves. That's the issue- that people were voting based on two completely different scenarios and they got shoved together.

Edit (to a post I didn't see)- I'd rather suggest that we make both card playable, just imbalanced towards each other. Y'know, so both see play while Crush is just better than Alien Lawyers. Seems smarter than fostering underpoweredocity. This was all an excuse to type that.

Mainly commentary. We're getting nowhere fast with this and I figured I'd throw the idea out, hope people agreed with me, and we could start working on correcting the flavor concerns web has.

Edit: How about we simply boost Crush by one speed, nerf Alien Lawyers by one speed, and call Alien Lawyers the baseline for "average monster D" that light has to be worse than and dark better than. 3 speeds should be enough to placate web, and one speed boosts and nerfs won't seriously unbalance the game.

Crush and Alien Lawyers is a definite possibility, if we can either get a consensus for the nerf/boost or some new thread/pushed change, whatever. It's about as much of a difference as we can get without altering costs.

(03-28-2009 12:36 AM)Nacho Wrote:  Right now, the order is loosely L>D>G,

One of these is very out of place, isn't it?

Well, part 2 of my plan involves a thread boosting and nerfing the other 4? monster destruction/obliteration cards to fit the new baseline. While I'm asking, anyone know web's position on 2 color cards? would a L/G effect D be 5 mono equivalent and speed, 6 mono equivalent and speed, or somewhere in between?

...the new baseline is going to be a few speed scores difference at best and one cost at worst. What the heck would we need to do to the other cards?