[Suggest] Would You Be Mine [Finished]

Second thread here.

---

ok
like remembrence, landing, and year one cake WYBM has been perceived as overpowered for a long time
and you know what? it was
but the last nerf was in fact an overnerf

the reason a lot of those formentioned cards are considered overpowered by some is because they work very well in very specific decks
but put them out of their niche and they're pretty crap

now WYBM worked best in rush decks that could afford to lose the life for the monster (and card avantage with landing) while not spending any mana

and yes
it was a little overpowered
but it was turned from something overpowered to something i don't think i'd ever want to put in ANY deck

if we reversed the previous nerf and replaced it with either cost of 1/1/1 or maybe increase the damage it deals you when it's used

it'll still be nerfed in rush decks but it'll be usuable again at least

also on top of those changes whatever happened to the idea of changing the coding of charmed to disallow landing and chron gun abuse?
i'd be ok with that myself

nolder Wrote:Would You Be Mine

No. No I would not.

I agree, the last nerf was probably an overnerf. Giving the card a mana cost and making sure it caused loss of 50 life on failure (if it didn't before) would definitely go a lot further to making it balanced instead of completely underpowered.

(04-21-2009 07:58 PM)Jessica Stryker Wrote:  

nolder Wrote:Would You Be Mine

No. No I would not.

that was probably one of the lamest jokes you've ever made

also @kenn: don't forget the problem with landing or chroniton gun
in my opinion that was the biggest problem WYBM had

nolder Wrote:Would You Be Mine

Hey there buddy, you'll need to at least take me out a few times first. I may be easy, but I'm not cheap.

I like this nerf (by this, I mean the one we enacted last time). It goes a long way towards stopping the very overpowered WWBM+Landing Combo. If you want a deck that it goes good in, try Mana Furnace. 50 life+2 cards for monster D and the sac value of your target in dark mana is by no means underpowered. In fact I'd still call it overpowered.

Edit: And Chroniton Gun too.

It would probably work with BoS as well, huh? (I may steal that for my BoS deck.)

---

On topic (and joking aside, since I guess I have to):
What has made the card so unusable in it's current form? I assume Noodle will take this one, but the rest of you can answer too, I guess. I never use the card, so I'd like to hear comments and rational from others.

(04-21-2009 08:30 PM)sXeAndriex Wrote:  It would probably work with BoS as well, huh? (I may steal that for my BoS deck.)

That sounds like a really good idea. I'd steal it for my BoS/War NPC/Landing deck if I had any, or if there were any on the market. If you think they're worthless, wana sell me your NOLDER?

(04-21-2009 08:30 PM)sXeAndriex Wrote:  What has made the card so unusable in it's current form? I assume Noodle will take this one, but the rest of you can answer too, I guess. I never use the card, so I'd like to hear comments and rational from others.

Yeah, I'm gonna take this one.

First of all, a lot like BoS when WYBM got nerfed it was to kill a combo but it also hurt its use when used in a way that isn't broken. Giving up two cards and 50 life to steal a monster for one turn isn't exactly that stellar. Even considering the fact it may be used as pseudo-monster D, what with blocking and all. The only current uses that are somewhat viable are Mana Furnace and Chroniton, and also BoS to a lesser extent. The thing is, no matter what you use it with, if you cast WYBM before you get everything you need in play and cast all the spells that you could use, or maybe even be used against you if your opponent gets it(which is likely the case if you're forced to cast WYBM), then it's not worth the risk to give your opponent a card. If you've got everything in play that you need then because that's the case, chances are the WYBM isn't going to do anything your monsters, effects, or location can't. Chroniton Gun is already good at bouncing your opponent's monsters, sure with WYBM they don't get the monster back and you gain it, but it's still not worth it. Mana Furnace is usually used to pump out monsters like Galgarion or Black Dragon. Hell, even Boss Khrima can smash something that becomes a threat without the help of WYBM.

WYBM/Landing was overpowered, but I don't think the combo itself was overpowered(if that makes sense). I think it was the fact it cost so little ot pull off was. But giving your opponent a card is too much. The life cost should be raised to 60-75 life. It'd be perfectly balanced, even with the combos. It'd still be a top-tier combo, but there's nothing wrong with good combos. CMC needs more of them. I'd maybe even consider adding a discard cost instead. Mana cost, no. Maybe a 1/1/1 cost but that's it. Nothing else in addition to it. I'm against allowing the likes of Chron. Gun and Landing to be unable to target charmed monsters, only because it removes a good combo that can be balanced so that it's not too good.

Increasing the life cost or adding a discard a card cost is the best way to go. It makes it so you still give up more than 50 life(which decks can easily afford to give up, see Burn! Burn!), but it balances the combos and doesn't hurt its use in play other than in combos. Also, WYBM + Landing doesn't give any card advantage. It's a cycling combo. Just tossing that out there.

(04-21-2009 07:54 PM)NOLDER Wrote:  also on top of those changes whatever happened to the idea of changing the coding of charmed to disallow landing and chron gun abuse?

I think people stopped suggesting it after I threatened to ban anyone that did?

Actually didn't I ban you that one time for exactly that? Or was it something else?

You banned him once for complaining about Cosmos Dragon after threatening to ban anyone that did. Not sure about the charmed thing though.

Also, changing charmed didn't have majority support either way.

Oh, that seems a tiny bit less reasonable than this. Still, offer stands. I'd veto the suggestion (again) but webrunner has in fact vetoed it himself since, so yeah. We won't be making charmed monsters immune to self-targeting.

The way I see it, if you aren't using this card with BoS/Landing/Mana Furnace/whatever, you're not using it right, and have no right to complain about it. And all of these combos would be heavily broken if it was changed to 1/1/1 or 60 life. 100 life for monster D at no cards/gaining mana equal to the monster's sac/shit load of counters on BoS/etc... sounds fair, especially considering Burn Burn, and I'd be willing to vote for that. It's a boost, just nowhere near as big as what you/Noodle are asking for.

My only problem with WYBM as it is is that the card they gain can be WYBM. If this could be changed I'd have no problem with it.

do note I said I am also fine with 75 life. which is a lot more balanced than 100 life.

100 life would still leave the card absolute shit.

It would make it absolute shit unless you comboed it with Landing/etc.... It would no longer be viable against most tournament level decks, no, but it would be a nice alternative to Crush in Mana Furnace and BoS decks, plus anything that already uses Chroniton Gun or NPC/Landing (more the first 2 than the last 2).

Edit for the response I can guess will follow: Not everything can be good enough for tournament play. If it destroys monsters, balancing it for use against all three versions of Karn isn't going to happen. The best we can do is balance it for use against the strongest one, who doesn't show up in tournaments.

But WYBM is perfectly capable of being good for tournament play without overpowering the card, which is what a 75 life cost would accomplish. The total amount of times they could cast WYBM is cut down to 3 times and the total amount of times they can cast it safely is twice. 100 life cuts that down to 2 total times to cast and 1 time you can safely cast it. That's... that's awful.

I don't see why we should botch this balance change under the terms of "not everything can be good enough for tournament play" when WYBM CAN be good enough for tournament play and be balanced.

(04-21-2009 08:45 PM)Noodle Wrote:  Also, WYBM + Landing doesn't give any card advantage. It's a cycling combo. Just tossing that out there.

It's a cycling and destruction combo. That's where the stupid sets in.

A cycling and destruction combo that could have been balanced better than it has.

I don't see why people think the combo use is so key here.

If the opponent has two monsters that trade with each other, and either one of them is undizzy or both of them are attacking, then WYBM on its own kills two monsters. To be honest, I've found this scenario to be both pretty common and stronger than the Landing combo tends to be anyway.