Some stuff...

It\'s not a big deal to me either way, I\'m just trying to find the middleground.

With swooping dragon: I understand you guys prefer 55/60, but this doesn\'t seem like gray flavor to me. Gray can usually be killed by MMW.


Ok, so(?)
Consented:
Prince Far\'thin -> 65/65
Swooping Dragon -> 58/58 ( I realize you guys like 55/60 better, so I am not 100% sure this is consented, but it seems to be agreed that it is okay. I mean, 55/60 is technically the same as 58/58 except that he has equal attack/life. It\'s not like people wouldn\'t use mmw on him when he boosts his attack anyways, so hopefully this is acceptable. )



Needs Consent:
Brig Aliens: -> 60/43 6D/8D (This satisfies tamdrik\'s request for a 60/45, and satisfies zaen\'s request to put it in range for a common breakpoint, in this case, 35 attack creatures.)
Melrak Soldier -> 65/35 6D/7D I am going to go out on a limb here and agree that 65/35 is fine, mostly because of XO\'s earlier reasoning on the card, but 5D sac is still too low to me. Is that ok zaen?
Malatak -> 66/66 12D/13D, alright, I\'ll go with this one, any problems? I know zaen agreed with the cost but didn\'t like the life comparison to norlaan, but my feeling is, he has armor, so it is in flavor compared to norlaan, who wears a cloak.


No idea on:
Robot Flunky -> 3D / 4D/2G OR 3D/ 3D/2G

dragon is going to be a 3G / 4G 1L 1D, so although this card may or may have too high sac, he is not unbalanced comparatively, we would need to balance dragon as well. But mana furnace comes to mind. Basically: Play this card, mana furnace it, gain 3D, essentially it\'s like the old Dark Rituals only instead of 1G 1L 2D to gain 5D. With dragon it\'s not as much a problem because you can\'t play a consequtive dragon turn after turn because they cost gray and are converted to dark.

kaddar Wrote:Melrak Soldier -> 65/35 6D/7D I am going to go out on a limb here and agree that 65/35 is fine, mostly because of XO\'s earlier reasoning on the card, but 5D sac is still too low to me. Is that ok zaen?

Actually, if you open him up to Dragon, etc., I\'d rather bump the sac back up to 8. Seems reasonable to me, since he still loses one sac gain relative to Winged Demon, and only gains 15 stat points for the extra mana.

kaddar Wrote:No idea on:
Robot Flunky -> 3D / 4D/2G OR 3D/ 3D/2G

dragon is going to be a 3G / 4G 1L 1D, so although this card may or may have too high sac, he is not unbalanced comparatively, we would need to balance dragon as well. But mana furnace comes to mind. Basically: Play this card, mana furnace it, gain 3D, essentially it\'s like the old Dark Rituals only instead of 1G 1L 2D to gain 5D. With dragon it\'s not as much a problem because you can\'t play a consequtive dragon turn after turn because they cost gray and are converted to dark.

See, I have a different viewpoint on Mana Furnace. The way I see it, with Dragon, you can convert 3 to 6, so you gain 6 dark mana at the cost of some splash. I think this is actually more useful than gaining 3 from the Flunky. Note how Drecker and Dragon are the keys to mana furnace decks, since they are so efficient at pumping your dark mana reserves quickly. Admittedly, I\'m only a casual Furnace player, but from what I\'ve gathered from the \'master\' furnace-wielders, that seems to be the case.

kaddar Wrote:Needs Consent:
Brig Aliens: -> 60/43 6D/8D (This satisfies tamdrik\'s request for a 60/45, and satisfies zaen\'s request to put it in range for a common breakpoint, in this case, 35 attack creatures.)

Is there any cheaper 35-40 attack light creature right now? That\'s still bigger than a monk. I don\'t mind having another bird-killer right now, but he\'s better than a lot of the things out there. Khrimech is 60/30 for 6D1G.

Brig alien gets a nice attack, 45 life which is a good point, a nice sac. I assume they are not keeping the sneaking ability?

Dunno, it just worries me. 55/43 or even 50/43 might be better. It\'s still a boost, but not overboard

kaddar Wrote:Melrak Soldier -> 65/35 6D/7D I am going to go out on a limb here and agree that 65/35 is fine, mostly because of XO\'s earlier reasoning on the card, but 5D sac is still too low to me. Is that ok zaen?

Sure. My main objection was the life. 8D is a weird sac point because a sac site allows you to double up (12D with sac site). That\'s similar to monks.

kaddar Wrote:Malatak -> 66/66 12D/13D, alright, I\'ll go with this one, any problems? I know zaen agreed with the cost but didn\'t like the life comparison to norlaan, but my feeling is, he has armor, so it is in flavor compared to norlaan, who wears a cloak.

I\'m just saying that it doesn\'t seem like a follower anymore. His ability is also nasty, so his quick death is one of the things balancing it out.
Also 66/66 seems just so... normal.

kaddar Wrote:No idea on:
Robot Flunky -> 3D / 4D/2G OR 3D/ 3D/2G

I vote for 3D2G sac. My objections have been voiced, so I guess there\'s no point in repeating it. I just don\'t think that makes him useless.

Tamdrik Wrote:See, I have a different viewpoint on Mana Furnace. The way I see it, with Dragon, you can convert 3 to 6, so you gain 6 dark mana at the cost of some splash. I think this is actually more useful than gaining 3 from the Flunky.

Sigh. I guess I do have to voice my objection again. I\'m not worried about furnace decks. I\'m worried more about manaless rush.For those who don\'t know, that is, all creatures worth 3 mana, one third of each color. Using only the natural 1 mana of each color you can put one creature on the field each turn, on average.

A flunky, even injured, could be traded for 4D+2G. Add to that the 1L1D1G natural mana production and that is 2 creatures and 2/3rds of another. Even goblin doesn\'t give you that much of an advantage, partly because the mana is all dark and you should have 1/3rd creatures of each color. And note that goblin, the current leader for 3D sac is only +2 mana.

It\'s too much of a boost. Leave it at 3D+2G and it\'s still useful for manaless decks.

I don\'t get it.. I can\'t form a solid opinion on cards anymore! I mean, I can see if a card is extremely off balance, but all this discussion with the different viewpoints and all has made me lose my orientation.

If the current csc would just be implemented, we could get used to the new standards, and then discuss other cards.
I think changing even more right now would be where it\'s no longer entirely under control, because it\'s hardly overseeable. Well, for me at least.

In short: I won\'t be giving any feedback on the thread anymore unless I see fundamental flaws that no one else has already pointed out. It\'s just too much confusion for me

Same as Fish. Implement the cscs. Then I can screw around with manaless mana transitions with the flunky.

Affirmative.

More balances are issues for the next balance. And even then, give it a while for the changes to sink in. I don\'t have a clue what most of the cards will be without reference atm.

Yeah, every thime I look at this thread I have to pull up allcards.jsp, and even then I only pick up on the more glaring problems.

As you\'ve probably noticed by now, I \'ve been mostly complaining about excessive boosting. It seems that this balance pass is all boost and no nerf. So I try to look for things like double-sac, weird breakpoints and such

I still think that this balance pass ought to address some of the most needed nerfs, but it looks like we can\'t get to a consensus on the burrower, and the people in charge just like their birds and winged golems.

The initial thrust of this balance was more or less \"Yeah, we COULD just nerf birds and Golems a little. But what if we made everything else better instead?\" I believe the notion was that of introducing natural predators for them. That\'s why the balance is mostly buffs, not nerfs, at least. Still, I\'d say that we try the balance out and then tweak it again if needed.

So, I\'ve heard, and yet I don\'t see any predators. Look back a few pages for the discussion.

Most of the big boosts I\'ve mentioned wouldn\'t affect these things directly. I just think they are too big on their own.

I mean, the new aliens can take down a bird, but it adds a new problem card. Why not just take birds down with phantom galgarion, which at least has weaknesses.

I implore you to get into the next balance as soon as it starts. Although I don\'t want to see a rebalance topic the day after the csc is implemented. A bit of time will be needed for the changes to sink in. Viva la nerf!